New Michigan Member

Hey guys.
I'm looking into buying a Lister Bell Kit. I haven't decided what engine I'm going to go with yet except its going to be different...

My goal is to start my build by 2020 as I have a house to build and masters school to finish. this car has been a dream of mine ever since I was little with a dream to be a Ferrari Engineer.

I am an automotive Engineer working for Chrysler and I am a former FSAE member from Cal-Poly Pomona (a tech school in California).

I am still in negotiations with the wife haha. I told her she could drive it when i finish it and help build the motor. She likes technical stuff but shes having a hard time justifying the expense even though it will all be my money.

Maybe some of you could say how awesome these cars are haha. Has anyone taken one to sand dunes? They are popular here in Michigan.

I know I'll want to autocross occasionally, would the better suspension off of Lister bell be a necessary upgrade?

Anyways, Ill be asking about "different" engine platforms and shipping information for starters.

Hopefully someone from Michigan will see this and let me and my wife see their car. (another selling point)

Sand + Stones ; why not :rolleyes:

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So possible result ;;)

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Welcome and good luck with your project:p

Welcome.

If you want something 'different' I can point you to a guy in the UK that does a 500+ hp n/a V6. Based on a 370z block. Bit expensive though!

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Originally Posted by LPH_UK

Welcome.

If you want something 'different' I can point you to a guy in the UK that does a 500+ hp n/a V6. Based on a 370z block. Bit expensive though!

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That actually sounds pretty cool. How expensive?

I was thinking 4G63 turbo. It's the closest semi Chrysler engine I could get with a manual trans. DSM motors. =)

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Originally Posted by LPH_UK

Welcome.

If you want something 'different' I can point you to a guy in the UK that does a 500+ hp n/a V6. Based on a 370z block. Bit expensive though!

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Do you guys know if anyone has fit a HEMI in these? Would it package?

Personally I would recommend sticking with one of the previously developed engine installations unless you have the ability to engineer your own engine mounts, gear linkage, exhaust system, fuel system, & coolant pipes, etc. Your job would suggest you do fall into this category of course. For the LB there are packages available for any of the transverse Alfa V6 motors, the Ferrari 308/328 V8's & the Toyota 2GR-FE. These options give you power options from 190 through to at least 350Bhp which I think most will agree is more than adequate for a short car like the Strato's. Hawk & Corse replicas have been fitted with engines such as the Integrale turbo, Beta Volumex supercharged, Honda V6, Thema Turbo, Dino V6 etc. I think that there are a number of 4 cylinder turbo engines out there these days which will run rings around the old Alfa V6 but with the engine options out there these days then the V6 soundtrack is an essential element to go with the ethos of the car. The exception for me is the 308/328 motor which whilst having too many cylinders has the right badge & is positioned correctly in the car with the correct diff housing etc.
The issue with the Turbo cars is the complication they introduce with regards to charge cooling. There is simply no airflow in the engine bay to run with a straight forward air to air intercooler. The next alternative is to fit a charge cooler but the radiator for this really needs to be mounted up front which in turn leads to some serious plumbing and a possibly bespoke radiator to avoid compromising the standard coolant system. It has been done (see Turbonutter's thread on this forum) but it isn't easy.

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Originally Posted by Strat Fan

Personally I would recommend sticking with one of the previously developed engine installations unless you have the ability to engineer your own engine mounts, gear linkage, exhaust system, fuel system, & coolant pipes, etc. Your job would suggest you do fall into this category of course. For the LB there are packages available for any of the transverse Alfa V6 motors, the Ferrari 308/328 V8's & the Toyota 2GR-FE. These options give you power options from 190 through to at least 350Bhp which I think most will agree is more than adequate for a short car like the Strato's. Hawk & Corse replicas have been fitted with engines such as the Integrale turbo, Beta Volumex supercharged, Honda V6, Thema Turbo, Dino V6 etc. I think that there are a number of 4 cylinder turbo engines out there these days which will run rings around the old Alfa V6 but with the engine options out there these days then the V6 soundtrack is an essential element to go with the ethos of the car. The exception for me is the 308/328 motor which whilst having too many cylinders has the right badge & is positioned correctly in the car with the correct diff housing etc.
The issue with the Turbo cars is the complication they introduce with regards to charge cooling. There is simply no airflow in the engine bay to run with a straight forward air to air intercooler. The next alternative is to fit a charge cooler but the radiator for this really needs to be mounted up front which in turn leads to some serious plumbing and a possibly bespoke radiator to avoid compromising the standard coolant system. It has been done (see Turbonutter's thread on this forum) but it isn't easy.

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All good things to think about. Engine mounts and exhaust and coolant lines aren't something I am worried about. Charge cooler placement and proper airflow are definitely thing I had not yet put into consideration.

Part of this project for me is going to be an engine build so a developed engine isnt my first choice. (If the alfa v6 was easier to get in USA that would be my choice) Since the alfa v6 is rare and the next best is Toyota, originality isn't a huge concern for the engine bay.

However, a high revving v6 would be nice. Since I work for Chrysler, a Chrysler engine would be a big plus for me personally.

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Originally Posted by MooglyMoog

That actually sounds pretty cool. How expensive?

I was thinking 4G63 turbo. It's the closest semi Chrysler engine I could get with a manual trans. DSM motors. =)

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Erm - about £15k+ I think. Can check if you are really interested. Should be over there on Wed this week.

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Originally Posted by LPH_UK

Erm - about £15k+ I think. Can check if you are really interested. Should be over there on Wed this week.

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Ha, yeah, that's a bit out of my budget. I am curious how high it revs though.

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Originally Posted by MooglyMoog

Ha, yeah, that's a bit out of my budget. I am curious how high it revs though.

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I'll ask when I'm there on Wed and report back

Saw him today and asked. He does various versions of the engines from almost stock to 500+HP with fully forged internals.

Standard(ish) engine with original crank and rods, balanced and with lightweight flywheel and their custom ITBs fitted should make 400hp. Said it should rev to at least 8000, probably be OK at 8500. Would cost 10-12k on top of buying the second hand engine to start with as the base for the rebuild.

It's a very compact engine. Much smaller than the Alfa or Toyota lumps. It's only a little bit wider than a Honda K20 4 cyl engine (which is the guys other specialty).

I sourced a Alfa v6 in the usa, it came from Japan with transmission, struts and hubs .. $1800 delivered. There are also Alfa 164's available ,,, few and far between but if your 3 years out you will definately get a compete can for about $3,500.
BTW i think the lead time for a Lister Bell kit is a few years, check with Graig they are busy over there with a full order book.

I spoke with Lydia? a few days ago and she said the wait is about a year for a kit.

I think I've decided on a Turbo 4G63 as I have been looking into a turbo build and a 4g63 is partly a Chrysler product.

AVFC80, Thanks for that info, however im not much of a originalist when it comes to the engine.
Short of fitting in a hemi (because "its got a hemi") or a pantera engine, I think I'll stick with this. 4G63 parts are very easy to come by (my main worry with the alfa v6 and 164) and I can get more power out of it for less money.

Yes the wait is about a year for a kit .... but a standard kit I guess
seems you write you are decided on adifferent engine they had developed the mounting points, mounting brackets , drive shafts , cooling etc etc so means you are in capacity of doing all that stuuf on your own onto a bare un painted cahssis ????
Congrats !! will follow with big interest if you start on the forum your built :o

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Originally Posted by MooglyMoog

I spoke with Lydia? a few days ago and she said the wait is about a year for a kit.

I think I've decided on a Turbo 4G63 as I have been looking into a turbo build and a 4g63 is partly a Chrysler product.

AVFC80, Thanks for that info, however im not much of a originalist when it comes to the engine.
Short of fitting in a hemi (because "its got a hemi") or a pantera engine, I think I'll stick with this. 4G63 parts are very easy to come by (my main worry with the alfa v6 and 164) and I can get more power out of it for less money.

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Ok no problem... one thing to note is that I was told these chassis can be a handful so I'm told from a horsepower perspective less is more. There may be other guys running a lot of horsepower so check with them on this. BTW I have 2000Bhp in the garage so I'M not afraid of a few ponies.

good luck with the project!

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Originally Posted by AVFC80

Ok no problem... one thing to note is that I was told these chassis can be a handful so I'm told from a horsepower perspective less is more. There may be other guys running a lot of horsepower so check with them on this. BTW I have 2000Bhp in the garage so I'M not afraid of a few ponies.

good luck with the project!

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I have also heard the same. That's why I'm sticking with 330 hp. I feel that will be near the top end of my comfort zone for now haha. I can always tune for more ponies if I feel like it. I'm going to try to tune the turbo so it doesn't kick on hard when the boost hits.

I am getting excited. I still need to scrounge up the rest of the mones but Ive been dreaming and thinking about this for the last month straight haha.

I am capable of mounting points and coolant systems so the undeveloped engine shouldn't be too much of a problem. The wiring will be the hardest part in my opinion.

What makes this forum so valuable is the cross-section of skillsets represented among the members. For me it was the exact opposite - I was completely in my comfort zone when it came to wiring and anything electrical, but wanted nothing to do with breaking new ground on engine options, dealing with welding and engine mounting points, custom driveshafts, etc so I kept with the tried and tested Alfa V6

Wiring is my nemesis too!

Welcome to Michigan. I have a Hawk Chassis that was delivered last October. Very long term project for me but happy to swap Stratos stories anytime. I'm heading down the Frankenstein Ferrari engine route (big capacity / big valve 308QV engine) which I am in the process of building right now. Happy to show you the car anytime.

Lister Bell owners: Can someone measure the width between the frame members of the rear sub-frame? Also, the height between them? I need rough dimensions for packaging purposes. Im trying to decide if I can fit a Hemi in a Stratos.

Also, Ilmor, Can you measure the height and width of you engine, including the accessory drive?

Unfortunately I cant help much on the dimensions of the Ferrari motor just yet as its completely torn apart. I'm sure there are others on the forum than can help though. The engine bay is quite small as is the F. motor and the Alfa. Hemi could be a problem due both to its mass (these cars a squirly enough already) and the width across the cylinder-heads. Be an interesting project though. What would you do for a gearbox?

Yeah. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna do a turbo i4. The HEMI is too big but being a Chrysler engineer we are constantly trying to HEMI everything. =)

I could still use the height and width of the engine bay frame rails though. =)

i will try to measure tonite.

any progress?

Yes, sorry about the wait. I have been crazy sick for the last month or so, and am just getting back up to speed. I went over and measured today. Looking at a plan view, the two chassis rectangular rails on the upper portion of the chassis running fore aft are 37" wide between. There is also a diagonal tube leading from the bottom side of those,forward to the lower chassis rails. Those are about 42" in between. Looking from the back, its about 24" from the top rectangular cross rail to the lower rectangular cross rail. Also in rear view the two uprights rails that connect those cross rails are 30.5" apart at the top and about 17" apart at the bottom. Hope this helps. Its a tight fit for the alfa v6.

Thanks. Now I have to go measure my engine. =)