Limited Slip Diffs

[rutthenut]

Another question from me - you can tell I've used the car lately, it brings to mind all manner of jobs I may want to do to it :-o

I've got a Gripper diff fitted, which was good for track use but rather aggressive, clonky and noisy on the road. It also screwed up the handling, with so much grip at the rear it promotes dreadful understeer under power, switching very quickly to lift-off oversteer if I back off at all (more than the standard Strat behaviour, which is saying something). Have messed a bit with suspension settings a bit to reduce that, though not sorted yet. On track, with cornering forces loading up the front, it behaves better.

At a very wet Zolder, the diff was still working a bit too hard, kicking the back sideways every now and then as it appeared to have some lock-up between the wheels on long curves. Maybe, or maybe not, related, I was finding that gear changing got harder once the car/box had warmed up. That might mean gearbox on the way out though I don't know if it is the case or not.

Will look at changing the box oil and putting in fresh oil, with friction modifier for the lsd, to see if the gear change and diff behaviour improves.

Any other comments or experiences of the Gripper diff out there?

Other option I am considering would be to fit a Q2 viscous-type diff onto my spare gearbox and swap over the to that. Fitting an uprated clutch whilst doing it, because I do not enjoy gearbox swaps on the Hawk.

Question is, with the Alfa 164 24v, five-speed gearbox: does the speedo drive still work if a Q2 diff is fitted into the tramsmission?

If not, what have others done about the speedo?

Thanks in advance,
John Rutter

[STR_Strat]

Hi John,

I have just fitted a Quaife diff to mine and transferred the nylon ring gear that drives the speedo from the old diff to the new one. This meant removing one of the taper bearings to get the ring off but that wasn't too much of a problem.

Regards

Dave

[rutthenut]

Hi John,

I have just fitted a Quaife diff to mine and transferred the nylon ring gear that drives the speedo from the old diff to the new one. This meant removing one of the taper bearings to get the ring off but that wasn't too much of a problem.

Regards

Dave
Had that done to put the drive ring onto the Gripper diff assembly, but wasn't sure if that was possible with the Q2 diff being fitted into the older (5-speed) gearboxes, whereas I expect it to be fine on the later 6-speed units.

Wasn't aware Quaife actually put an Alfa diff into production. Had asked about them numerous times in the past but they never seemed interested unless someone wanted to buy a couple of dozen. If that's a torsen-style diff, I reckon that would be a good all-rounder, great for both track and road use. The Q2 would be more suited to road use, I'd think, though could be completely wrong about that. An open diff ok for most road use, until leaning on it and getting an inside wheel lifting and spinning under power.

Cheers,
J.R.

[Sando]

John some other threads on here around this. Q2 is not viscous but Automatic Torque Biasing as per the other Quaife ATB designs. The Quaife ATB drawings look exactly the same as a Q2.
Even the people selling them are now referring to them both in the same web page as the same thing. One comes in a box with Alfa Romeo on the other in a box with Quaife on. Do an eBay search if you can't see the other threads, the page there speaks of both. ( and they do fit either 5 or 6 speed) speak to AT spares about Q2 they were the cheapest at one time.
I've used one for several years now and very progressive and easy to live with on the road or track.
Rob

[rutthenut]

Cheers Rob - somehow thought Q2 was viscous, so being an ATB design should be better still.
Assume that when you say it fits both boxes, the speedo drive can also still be used?

Rgds,
John

[STR_Strat]

Hi John,

Here is the link to the one used. No problem with the speedo drive using a 5 speed box.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alfa-Romeo-Quaife-ATB-differential-V6-2-5-3-0-3-2-156-147-GTA-GT-JTD-GTV-Q2-Diff-/330758572601?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4d02bf4a39#ht_733wt_907

Dave

[rutthenut]

Thanks - had just found that supplier after Rob's info.

Will see if fresh oil and friction modifier makes the lsd and gearbox behave a bit better, but can see me getting one of these fitted at some time if I want to get more road use out of the car. Then again, maybe just put up with the clonking, so long as gear-changing still works!

Cheers for the info guys
J.R.

[rutthenut]

Bit more info from this supplier on their site, btw, referring to ATB and Quaife.
http://www.autolusso.co.uk/performance/q2-differential.html

And a thread discussing the Quaife/Alfa Q2 differences here
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-gta/320139-autolusso-no-longer-fitting-or-selling-q2-diffs.html

[Martin Crikey]

If you fit a Quaife atb diff, would X1/9 drive shafts on Gerry's adapter be up to the job or would a stronger drive shaft be needed.
Cheers

[Guy Mayers]

I've never heard of X19 driveshafts being fitted to a Hawk before, only Lancia Beta. There needs to be a weak point in the driveline somewhere, preferably somewhere cheap and easily replaced and that's usually a CV joint or a driveshaft, they tend to shear at the end of a spline and hopefully the rubber boot will keep the remains in place until you stop the engine.
Try it and let us know?
Guy

[Bernard]

There needs to be a weak point in the driveline somewhere, preferably somewhere cheap and easily replaced and that's usually a CV joint (http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_nkw=cv+joint) or a driveshaft, they tend to shear at the end of a spline and hopefully the rubber boot will keep the remains in place until you stop the engine.

As I proved at Cornbury Rally Show (2011)..... albeit after a stupid man made yump

2000cc Lancia Beta shafts
11783

11784

Just make sure you have spare drive shafts on the shelf !

[ProtoTipo]

I've never heard of X19 driveshafts being fitted to a Hawk before,
Guy

I fitted them Guy.
With adapters to a GTA box with its long inter shaft.
I tested them for plunge through the whole suspension travel without springs on the struts.
The shafts are the same dimensions (thickness), but slightly shorter and without that curved narrow part that the FWD Beta shafts have.
I made sure that the shafts (you need 2 left shafts) were turning in the same direction as they had been on the original car. So the right shaft had to have its inner and outer ends reversed.
'Never got to run them though.

[ProtoTipo]

'Forgot to say;
because the 1500 X1/9 LH shafts normally have Lobros at both ends, there's no steering type CV 'C' clip grove at one end.
'Just a circlip groove at both ends.

[Lancialulu]

'Forgot to say;
because the 1500 X1/9 LH shafts normally have Lobros at both ends, there's no steering type CV 'C' clip grove at one end.
'Just a circlip groove at both ends.

Chris please enlighten me as to how the x1/9 shaft secures inside a wheel cv joint. I have looked at the GKN Lobros catalogue but it silent....

Maybe it does not so this is another issue. The current Beta end ring clip is not strong enough on full droop to retain the shaft.

[ProtoTipo]

Chris please enlighten me as to how the x1/9 shaft secures inside a wheel cv joint. I have looked at the GKN Lobros catalogue but it silent....

Maybe it does not so this is another issue. The current Beta end ring clip is not strong enough on full droop to retain the shaft.

That's what I mean. The circlip groove is no use with a FWD steering type CV joint. It would need to be modified (by precise grinding) to fit the normal Beta outer CV joint 'C' clip.
Having said that, some people don't bother with the outer CV 'C' clip at all, and they do vary with how well they retain the outer CV.
I had one on my Honda engined Hawk that would not come off. 'Ended up having to trash the outer CV to save the special Honda to Beta drive shaft.

Here's another thing; the X1/9 stub shaft does fit into the Beta/Integrale hub/flange. So you could have Lobros at either end of the shaft.

The only reason I looked at the short 1500 X1/9 shaft, was because of the long GTA intershaft leaving zero space for (Alfa V6 to Lancia Beta inner Lobro CV) shaft adapters.

[tomsredstratos]

Phil, I fully understand the hammers but the axe?

I have a hammer in my hand most of the day but feel I'm missing out! ;)

Tom

[Bernard]

Phil, I fully understand the hammers but the axe?

I have a hammer in my hand most of the day but feel I'm missing out! ;)

Tom

NOTHING WRONG WITH AN AXE IN YOUR TOOLBOX TOM !!!!....... IT'S JUST IN CASE A FELLOW COMPETITIOR BEATS MY TIME !!... LOL

[Normb666]

Tom, there's a simple explanation - it's in case he gets shafted. Boom-boom :-)

[Martin Crikey]

2 questions now, do many Stratos run LSD,s with Beta/ X1/9 driveshaft's on, will I change the handling very much, more understeer. I've noticed a lot of wheel spin on the inside wheel on tight bends this is why I am thinking of getting one. Is it important that they both shafts run in the right direction, I have fitted the X1/9 ones like they came off just with Integrale CV,s on them, they seem quite a good fit or at least I thought so at the time.
should the hammer/axe be on Dragons den, hammer on one end axe on the other. would save a bit of space.