PDA

View Full Version : Club Parts effort?



john
19-01-2013, 18:50
Prompted by a few cracked lenses on Frederic's car, over the last few days I've been reading a few online articles about manufacturing parts in resin.
I started off by looking at making replacement lamp lenses in amber and red tinted resin as I'm sure there would be a demand for these given that the side repeaters and rear light units are now so expensive, and the reversing light and fog light hard to come by.
The process seems relatively easy. You make a two piece mould in silicone RTV type material using a good component.
The material is not cheap but the most expensive aspect of the job is buying a vacuum pump and chamber to degas both the silicone for mould making and the resin for casting and also a pressure pot to ensure resin travels fully into the mould and ensure there are no cavities.
A trawl through ebay suggest's you could easily spend 500 before you make your first part.
I think it might be possible to make other components too like door spoons, handles, and the light units themselves.
There is no point in gearing up to do this if anyone in the club already knows a facility somewhere that might do this for us for mates rates.
Failing that might we "club" together and have a co-operative to manufacture and supply? i.e share the set up costs!

Marcolino
19-01-2013, 21:00
Hi John,

i can chip in some information ... I did some parts for radio controlled models and for my business. I am using an old medical suction pump (about 40 litres per minute and -90kPa). Works fine for getting the air out of the resin and the vaccum for the mould ... and i got it for free!

There is a very good "How to" handbook from a german resin distributor, the website and the handbook is also available in english.

http://www.r-g.de/en/home.html

and the handbook ...

http://ezentrumbilder3.de/rg/pdf/Handbuch_englisch.pdf

Think this will be a good start ... and the materials will also be available in the uk.
The company is located only 100km away from my home ... if anything special is needed give me a mail!

Guy Mayers
20-01-2013, 00:45
Might be a good idea to speak to Gerry before taking things too far. I know he has a source for the door handles and spoons and I also know that he was taking to Steve at SVA about remaking the Fiat Dino front indicators. Lenses aren't the problem though, it's the body/reflector unit on that part. I don't think he had any plans for other light units though I may be wrong about that.
Guy

Stratie.fr
20-01-2013, 12:02
Maybe this component for sale on ebay can be used



Lens Brake Tail Indicator fix for LANCIA MONTECARLO STRATOS (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=Lens+Brake+Tail+Indicator+fix+for+LANCIA+MONTECARLO+STRATOS&_sacat=0&_from=R40)

john
20-01-2013, 14:47
Thanks everyone.
Marcus, I'll certainly have a read through that guide.
What kind of volume of material were you able to process in your "free" vacuum pump system?
Looks like medical and dental pumps might be readily available .

Stableblock
20-01-2013, 15:28
....might be able to investment cast off a suitable plastic dummy to make light backs?

Stratie.fr
20-01-2013, 17:44
I have some pumps in my medical office but too small (10 - 50 milliliter) for making large parts like lights !
Much easy to treat patients with them than to repair cars!

john
20-01-2013, 20:56
Just had a close look at the rear light lenses.
I'd assumed they were moulded in two pieces but they are not.
I don't think you could pour two colours of resin into one mould and get it to go in the right place! Lol.
I have two new lamp units and one old intact one so some to experiment with.
What's investment casting?

Marcolino
20-01-2013, 21:05
Hi John,

i have got a 4 liter container but i do not put parts in it. I am using the pump for extracting the air out of the resin (in the container) and to press the resin with the fibre into the mould (vaccum with the blue perforated foil, have a look at the handbook). The biggest parts i made this way had a length of 120cm (rc model boat) with one part moulds.
I made some smaller (lets say 3D) parts with two part moulds, the biggest ones were 15cm x 10cm x 5cm. I used highly fluid expoxid resin (HT2) and powdered carbon fibre. Worked ok for my application, wall thinkness was big enough to stabilize.

john
29-05-2013, 22:54
Hi again all,
I'm taking this a little further by starting off with the side repeater indicator's.
While buying some resin materials the other day I got speaking to the proprietor of the business and showed him a good side indicator.
His opinion is that such a small part would not require degassing of the resin or any fancy materials.
We have come up with a way of making the lens and lamp base in resin as one piece, and the unit would be completed with the addition of a flat metal or plastic plate incorporating a bulb holder and a couple of fixing screws. The two parts would then be joined using a waterproof adhesive sealer. Of course you could still change the bulb as on the original units.
I'm also making a mould for the gaskets which the lamp unit's sit on.
Is everybody using the "flat" gasket? The new lamps that I have came with both a flat gasket and a gasket with a thicker leading edge presumable for fitting to bodywork with more of a curve on it.
Most of the photos I've checked out show a flat gasket of uniform thickness between lamp and body, but just thought I'd ask for more confirmation.

john
11-09-2013, 22:51
Here is the first side repeater lens out of the new mould.
This has been made in UV stabilised Epoxy resin and pigmented.
A bit too Orange? What do you think?
In lieu of the metal rim I thickened out the lens at that point before taking the mould and I figured that portion could just be painted silver.
Now I just need a metal mounting plate with a bulb holder in it, and a mould for the black mounting 'gaskets' and I'll be in production!

ChrisCar6
12-09-2013, 00:51
Depends how faded the original was!
Silver paint would do it to finish.
Any idea of cost?

john
12-09-2013, 09:09
Not sure on cost yet. The set-up cost has not been as high as feared yet because I have not had to go down the route of vacuum/pressure chambers. I'm still working on the mounting plate etc.
It'll be a reasonable price for club members anyway.
I'm seriously thinking of doing back light lenses too, and the lamp bodies are do-able too.
I have an original rear light which would sacrifice for a pattern but I don't have front indicator/side lights or original pattern fog/reverse lights, so if anyone has suitable items in their parts bins please let me know. They don't have to be perfect.

The Slug
12-09-2013, 09:19
Looking good John

goldtop
12-09-2013, 12:11
Fantastic work. Among the spares that I got with B694KRX this week, I believe I have reversing and fog lights. If you can wait until I'm back from holiday in about 10 days' time, I can take some photos to confirm they're the appropriate type and then send them over?

Guy Mayers
12-09-2013, 22:39
Reversing lights and fog lights aren't hard to find, the bodies are identical but the lenses are a different matter. The curved lenses are the wrong shape and ought to be square edged. There are also two different patterns on the inside of the lenses (and I for one don't know which one is the RIGHT one!) but I've got spares of each I'd be willing to lend provided the moulding process isn's a sacrificial one!

Anyway, here's a reversing light...

http://www.ebay.it/itm/FANALINO-RETRONEBBIA-RETTANGOLARE-CON-STAFFA-/121168838630?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item1c3639bfe6&_uhb=1

And a reversing light from the same seller....

http://www.ebay.it/itm/FANALINO-RETROMARCIA-RETTANGOLARE-CON-STAFFA-/121168838627?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item1c3639bfe3&_uhb=1

Different seller

http://www.ebay.it/itm/FANALE-RETRONEBBIA-OPEL-KADETT-MANTA-REAR-FOG-LAMP-/310737983258?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item48596d571a&_uhb=1

http://www.ebay.it/itm/FANALE-RETROMARCIA-FIAT-126-127-850-COUPE-900-125-124-REVERSING-LAMP-/400566753642?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item5d43a3996a&_uhb=1

And more

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Fanale-Retromarcia-Bianco-per-FIAT-127-/280699772382?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item415b029dde&_uhb=1

Possibly the right shape lens? Piccy not really clear on the body shape.. I'd think it's wrong from other Fiat 128 listings?

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Fanale-posteriore-retromarcia-FIAT-128-special-/120366072760?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item1c066083b8&_uhb=1

Lense only (but not the right one...)

http://www.ebay.it/itm/GEMMA-FANALE-FANALINO-RETROMARCIA-FIAT-126-/321202928237?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item4ac92fba6d&_uhb=1

ChrisCar6
12-09-2013, 22:58
I'm seriously thinking of doing back light lenses too, and the lamp bodies are do-able too.

I think it's the rear lamp bodies that are difficult to find - lenses seem to come up fairly frequently.

Guy Mayers
12-09-2013, 23:54
Think I proved the whole assembly is very easy to find Chris! The issue for the originality crowd (like me..) is the correct shaped lens!

Guy

The Slug
12-09-2013, 23:57
I agree with Guy finding the correct lens is hard to say the least, curved plentiful flat, yet to find one...

Guy Mayers
13-09-2013, 00:39
I've got them but they are my spares that I keep so that the originals won't need to be replaced (I work on the theory that you only break the bits you don;t have to hand!). I'm happy to loan them for pattern parts provided that the process doesn't wreck them.

The originals do come up for sale occasionally!

Oh, here's two -

http://www.ebay.it/itm/FANALINO-RETROMARCIA-X-LANCIA-STRATOS-EPOCA-/370852315186?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item5658854032&_uhb=1

If you've got the cash!

And a rear light unit

http://www.ebay.it/itm/LANCIA-STRATOS-HF-DEL-70-FANALE-POSTERIORE-AMBO-I-LATI-/160840186654?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item2572d27b1e&_uhb=1

Or a pair for less money...

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Fanali-posteriori-Lancia-Stratos-o-Stratos-/251335008437?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item3a84bbe0b5&_uhb=1

Guy

The Slug
13-09-2013, 00:44
Who's a clever boy then...!

ChrisCar6
13-09-2013, 00:59
It was the rear lights, not reversing/fog that I was talking about Guy.

Guy Mayers
13-09-2013, 09:46
It was the rear lights, not reversing/fog that I was talking about Guy.

Sorry Chris, I misread your post! You're right, the rear light bodies are harder to find than the reversing lights but they do come up regularly, trouble is we're not the only ones looking for them (GT40 etc) so the remanufacture of the base unit might be a good idea but I'd be tempted to see if anyone is still making them, it can't be all new old stock out there can it? Maybe SVC could help?

If anyone needs a pattern part I think I've got a pair of used ones somewhere that could be sacrificed!

Guy

john
13-09-2013, 11:32
Thanks for your help on this.
Identifying the correct part is an art in itself!
Sure, they may be available at present, but these parts are only going to get rarer as time goes on.
The rear lights have been remanufactured, but talking to the GT40 guy's who I bought a set off, these only seem to be done in batches from time to time so they are not exactly plentiful.
Cost is a big issue too.
Once geared up here there is a great potential for saving's on these vital parts.
The material cost is buttons.
Rest assured also that making the mould is not a sacrificial process. That original indicator lens in my photos was the one used to make the mould. I did add filler to the back of it to thicken it out, but this won't be necessary if making a lens and a lamp body, I'm pretty sure.
I'll keep working on this as time allows.

ProtoTipo
13-09-2013, 11:44
'Might it be possible to adapt the plentiful 'hamburger' lamps to mate up with original Fiat lenses?
Only for budget purposes, 'mind. You don't see the lamp unit, only the lens. That's if they're big enough?
Hamburger (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Truck-Wagon-Trailer-12V-or-24V-Rear-Hamburger-Lamp-/160935116521?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVehicleParts_SM&hash=item25787afee9)

ChrisCar6
13-09-2013, 11:47
I have a pair of spare rear light bodies and lenses if pattern is required.

Jeff
13-09-2013, 18:03
I have two pairs of the rear lights; original and remanufactured. Theres no question on which is the best, and it's not the newst ones. This is for two reasons: They're simply not good quality, and they're not "drop in" replacements for the originals (the back half is different). There has to be a market for good quality "as original" lights ... surely?

john
13-09-2013, 23:33
Agreed, Jeff. The remanufactured ones are a bit low on quality.

ProtoTipo
17-10-2013, 14:54
'Might it be possible to adapt the plentiful 'hamburger' lamps to mate up with original Fiat lenses?
Only for budget purposes, 'mind. You don't see the lamp unit, only the lens. That's if they're big enough?
Hamburger (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Truck-Wagon-Trailer-12V-or-24V-Rear-Hamburger-Lamp-/160935116521?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVehicleParts_SM&hash=item25787afee9)

'Looks like they are near enough the right size to use as an alternative.
See them fitted to the 'Strato-Yota' (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/lancia-stratos-ish-1-off-kit-car-based-on-Mk1-MR2-/331043875349?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item4d13c0aa15) that's currently for sale. 'Some extra photos have since been added to the ebay listing.

davehanman
18-10-2013, 08:24
I would have thought that by now this sort of thing could be 3D printed - just needs somebody to scan an old body and lens
david

john
18-10-2013, 09:01
That's a cracking idea!
Does the technology/process allow for printing the lens in two colours? Obviously I'm thinking of the rear light lenses.
Plus, you would need to add the reflective element internally.
Anyone with access to this kind of facility?

strat24v
18-10-2013, 12:01
I've made part of mine but as per usual, another unfinished project. Look in Facebook for eventorbot, mine's a modified version (eventually)

SUSIT
18-06-2015, 23:23
Any progress on this John?


That's a cracking idea!
Does the technology/process allow for printing the lens in two colours? Obviously I'm thinking of the rear light lenses.
Plus, you would need to add the reflective element internally.
Anyone with access to this kind of facility?

john
19-06-2015, 08:12
I can make the side repeater lenses easily enough Steve, but not done anything about the rear light units.
Folks seem to be getting hold of them still for their new builds

Guy Mayers
19-06-2015, 19:57
Not worth the cost of tooling up for side repeaters?

http://www.ebay.it/itm/LANCIA-FULVIA-COUPE-COPPIA-FRECCE-LATERALI-ALTISSIMO-NUOVE-/400845826525?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_101&hash=item5d5445e9dd

And someone is making the rear light units too...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fiat-850-N-S-1100-R-Complete-Rear-Light-New-/231187885950?hash=item35d3df2f7e&vxp=mtr

Guy

Jeff
19-06-2015, 20:50
And someone is making the rear light units too...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fiat-850-N-S-1100-R-Complete-Rear-Light-New-/231187885950?hash=item35d3df2f7e&vxp=mtr

Guy

This looks like one of the first set I had. If it is then the original lights, if you can find them, are far better made and more substantial. I found that the original lights can be polished and brought back to life if they've gone matt and opaque.

john
19-06-2015, 23:53
Umh, yes, certainly the reproduction rear lights leave a little to be desired.
The lenses seem ok to me but the bodies and especially the wiring terminals are not good.
Of course it's the lenses which get broken and the reproduction lenses can be seen as a source of replacements.
I've tried repro lenses on OE bodies and they do fit.
I've yet to look at 3d printer type machines which John H suggested were worth a look, but that tech is surely moving on and we might be able to build light unit bodies economically before too long.
My side repeater exercise was a bit low tech.
I had a mould made for the Orange lenses which works well but never got round to finding an LED indicator unit which could be canabalised to provide a base for the lenses.