Litton Corse build with 2.0l Lancia 8v TC [Archive]

MichaelEustace

23-01-2014, 18:59

Hi guys,

I've recently joined SEC to share some pics and updates of my Dad's (Paul Eustace) Litton Corse replica, which he is building at home in Suffolk, UK. I know some of you (http://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/1777-Stratos-Build) have already seen information about the car from a thread on Guy Croft's forum, but I thought I would add more information and pics here.

My Dad ordered what was one of the first Litton Corse replicas on 14th July 1989 and collected the chassis and body on 26th October 1989. The chassis is built to house a 2.0l 8v TC engine.

The car was mostly assembled during 1990 and an engine was taken from a crashed Lancia Beta HPE. I was 9-years-old at the time and, once any parts needed were stripped from the HPE, I had the enjoyable task of crushing the HPE with the rear bucket from a JCB before it was taken to the scrapyard :D.

Unfortunately, some high winds at the end of that year caused the double garage, in which the car was kept, to fall down. Luckily, the car suffered only minor bodywork damage which was easily repaired. The Stratos fund, however, took a hit, what with the need to build a new garage. Further distractions meant that momentum in the project ground a halt and the car sat in the garage for 22years until the end of 2012, when it was time to start up the project again.

The car will hopefully be on the road for this summer and I will post pics chronologically of build.

For now, some pics of the car at the end of 2012:

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Work then started on stripping the car for Dad to paint it in the garage and, in early 2013, the engine was taken to Guy Croft in Lincoln for a complete rebuild and tuning work.

Here are pics of the car after primer and acid etch coat:

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We would be very interested to hear from other Stratos owners in the East of England, particularly any Litton replica owners.

Cheers, Michael

ChrisCar6

23-01-2014, 19:16

Leading contender for the longest build?
Great to hear it's making progress again.

MichaelEustace

23-01-2014, 22:41

Leading contender for the longest build?
Great to hear it's making progress again.

Thanks Chris, really looking forward to getting the car completed - it's been a long time coming...

MichaelEustace

23-01-2014, 23:19

Here are some pics after the body chassis was painted and wheels and suspension fitted.

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Cadami

23-01-2014, 23:41

What a fantastic and interesting history. Your dad is a solid guy to hold on to his dream for so long AND to hopefully see it through to completion :-) Looking forward to the updates and completion. There's plenty of IVA help on the forum.

MichaelEustace

23-01-2014, 23:55

MichaelEustace

24-01-2014, 00:51

Photo of the underside of the car after painting

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Whilst the engine was with Guy Croft, we fitted the car with a spare engine with a view to transporting the car to Lance Pritchard at OJZ Engineering in Lincoln for custom exhaust fabrication.

Pic of the rear of the car in Lance's workshop, my Dad is on the left, Lance on the right. Very pleased with the finished article.

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john

24-01-2014, 09:10

Great to see another Corse emerging.
After ten years or more close to and around the Corse 'project' I have to say I don't think anyone knew or knows how many actually got manufactured and/or built into cars.
Good luck with the final stages.

Strat Fan

24-01-2014, 09:51

Thanks Cadami, I'm sure the IVA info on here will prove to be invaluable ;)

Cheers, Michael
Hello Michael,

Welcome, nice to see the car getting completed after all these years. I had a rifle through your FB gallery & the build looks very thorough with some interesting modifications/additions.

If I can start the IVA list with a couple of points-

1) Radius end on tail pipe
2) Emissions, how do you intend to approach this? Do you have a V5 doc that tallies to the new engine?

Regards

Cadami

24-01-2014, 13:19

The general rule is build it to a minimum spec with no extras. Less to fail and do for the retest........

MichaelEustace

24-01-2014, 15:42

Hello Michael,

Welcome, nice to see the car getting completed after all these years. I had a rifle through your FB gallery & the build looks very thorough with some interesting modifications/additions.

If I can start the IVA list with a couple of points-

1) Radius end on tail pipe
2) Emissions, how do you intend to approach this? Do you have a V5 doc that tallies to the new engine?

Regards

Thanks for your comments Craig. I will check on what is planned regarding the tailpipe. I have read elsewhere that the tailpipe should have a radius if it protrudes from the bodywork by more than 10mm, however the exhaust is underneath the rear body work, not protruding through it. I assume this will mean it needs a radius?

We have a V5 that tallies with the engine, the Beta HPE was scraped but this was never declared to the DVLA. From what I have read on the forum, this seems to be the right way to go so as to retain the V5.

Thanks, Michael

MichaelEustace

24-01-2014, 15:52

The general rule is build it to a minimum spec with no extras. Less to fail and do for the retest........

Thanks Cadami, yeah we're well aware there are a lots of requirements for the IVA. If anything, it would be good to pass first time simply because the closest test facility is now Norwich after Ipswich closed last year - bit of a trek to do twice.

Cheers, Michael

Strat Fan

24-01-2014, 17:45

I will check on what is planned regarding the tailpipe. I have read elsewhere that the tailpipe should have a radius if it protrudes from the bodywork by more than 10mm, however the exhaust is underneath the rear body work, not protruding through it. I assume this will mean it needs a radius?

We have a V5 that tallies with the engine, the Beta HPE was scraped but this was never declared to the DVLA. From what I have read on the forum, this seems to be the right way to go so as to retain the V5.

Thanks, Michael

The exhaust will be contactable so will require a radiused end, they use a cone to determine the plan of the body & it goes a long way under the boot panel of a Stratos replica due to the height of the bodywork.

Good news on having a V5 which tallies to the engine, double check that the engine number on the doc is the same as the one on the block, also make sure that you can read the number on the block easily & that it doesn't look to have been tampered with in any way. You will therefore be emissions tested on the age of the engine rather than having to meet a current emissions standard.

When you have passed the IVA test & gone through the rigmarole with the DVLA you should then be issued with a new V5 doc which has a previously unused registration from the year of the donor car.

Regards

Allora#2

24-01-2014, 20:15

Hello Michael,

saw those pictures on FB and it looks great!
and i saw also the pictures from engine work,
i do nearly the same with my 131 engine!
what can you say about the horse power?

Enzo

MichaelEustace

25-01-2014, 11:27

The exhaust will be contactable so will require a radiused end, they use a cone to determine the plan of the body & it goes a long way under the boot panel of a Stratos replica due to the height of the bodywork.

Good news on having a V5 which tallies to the engine, double check that the engine number on the doc is the same as the one on the block, also make sure that you can read the number on the block easily & that it doesn't look to have been tampered with in any way. You will therefore be emissions tested on the age of the engine rather than having to meet a current emissions standard.

When you have passed the IVA test & gone through the rigmarole with the DVLA you should then be issued with a new V5 doc which has a previously unused registration from the year of the donor car.

Regards

Thanks for all the info Craig, all very helpful.

I guess something will have to be done about the tailpipe as, from looking in the IVA manual, there's no way of satisfying a radius curvature of 2.5mm at present.

Yes all good about the engine, specifically on the emissions front. I could imagine trying to meet modern emissions on a Beta TC to be challenging if we did not have the V5.

Thanks, Michael

MichaelEustace

25-01-2014, 11:54

Hello Michael,

saw those pictures on FB and it looks great!
and i saw also the pictures from engine work,
i do nearly the same with my 131 engine!
what can you say about the horse power?

Enzo

Hi Enzo, thanks for your kind words.

Yes I have seen a pic of your 131 - it looks awesome. Have you got any videos of the car on Youtube? It would be great to see some.

Guy Croft (http://www.guy-croft.com) has done all the work to the engine, he has said on his forum that it will produce 187bhp. Is your 131 in a similar state of tune to this? Here are some pics of the engine during build:

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Thanks, Michael

MichaelEustace

25-01-2014, 13:42

He guys,

Some pics below of the ally fuel tanks loosely fitted during summer 2013. The left-hand tank holds 45 litres (9.9 gallons) whilst the right-hand holds 39 litres (8.7 gallons), totaling 84 liters (18.7 gallons). At 25mpg (here's wishing), the car's distance would be 467miles. Fuel pump can also be seen loosely fitted.
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And then again over Christmas 2013. Accusump can be seen on the right with external oil filter mount. Battery tray can just been seen to the left of the left-hand fuel tank. Also pic of the Mocal laminova loosely fitted.
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Ally radiator is made by Pro Alloy (http://www.proalloy.co.uk/).
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MichaelEustace

25-01-2014, 13:50

Some exterior pics of the car.

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ProtoTipo

25-01-2014, 13:54

Guy Croft (http://www.guy-croft.com) has done all the work to the engine, he has said on his forum that it will produce 187bhp. Is your 131 in a similar state of tune to this? Here are some pics of the engine during build:

So that's a power to weight ratio that exceeds a lot of V6s?

MichaelEustace

25-01-2014, 19:09

So that's a power to weight ratio that exceeds a lot of V6s?

Could well be. I'm not sure of all the weights of a Beta TC engine and chassis versus a V6 engine and chassis. Perhaps someone else on here would know? Would be interesting to find out.

ProtoTipo

26-01-2014, 09:21

Leading contender for the longest build?

Doesn't the Peter Hubbard Allora beat any Corse for that title. (kit purchaser = current owner)
I'll bet there are still some unfinished Transformer's bought in the 80s and still not sold on? Although I can't think of any?

Guy Mayers

26-01-2014, 11:33

John H?

strat24v

26-01-2014, 11:56

There's no pretenders to my crown left! I went for a tea break 20 months ago, got a little sidetracked and not picked up a hammer since.....

Guy Mayers

26-01-2014, 12:22

Just when did you start your build John? Can't have been long after me?

Guy

ProtoTipo

26-01-2014, 13:04

John H?

I think John H. is a modern day 1990s lightweight? Probably only just though?
Safety Devices chassis.

MichaelEustace

08-08-2014, 16:40

Hi guys, just some updates on current progress.

So the engine went in the car several months ago. First issue was that there was not a lot of space for the air box to fit in-between the carbs and right-hand fuel tank:

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So out came the engine again and part of the fuel tank was removed:

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Plenty of space for the air box now:

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My dad then made an airbox out of fibreglass...

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(continued in next post)

MichaelEustace

08-08-2014, 16:46

...which now fits nicely with inlet pipe and air filter mounted above the left-hand rear wheel...

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Michael

MichaelEustace

09-11-2014, 22:21

Hi guys, some more updates...

Doors are now hung. Took the best part of a weekend getting them to line up - very fiddly. We initially used the the original Litton door brackets, but since the pics below were taken, they've been swapped for items from Napier Sport purchased a couple of years ago, which are much stronger. The hinges are Litton items and we used Renault Clio straps, which work very well.

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Here's a pic sitting in the drivers seat for the first time.

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My Dad has completed some of the upholstery on the underside of the roof and A-posts. Not bad considering he's never used a sewing machine before...

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MichaelEustace

09-11-2014, 22:34

Some exterior pics of the car - door alignment has been improved since these pics.
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MichaelEustace

09-11-2014, 22:49

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MichaelEustace

09-11-2014, 23:06

First side window fitted

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Windows seals are next to be fitted.

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Allora#2

10-11-2014, 20:57

Wow Michael,
you did a great work step on the car,
fantastic solution with the door hinges and straps,
btw: you did mount the catches on the front bonnet strange, why?
Enzo

mr2by4

12-12-2014, 01:43

Could well be. I'm not sure of all the weights of a Beta TC engine and chassis versus a V6 engine and chassis. Perhaps someone else on here would know? Would be interesting to find out.

I would also be very curious the comparison. Looking at engine options I am curious how a Busso, QV and the little Fiat match up.

MichaelEustace

19-05-2015, 23:58

Hi guys,

The car is going in for its IVA test on 3rd June. Also finally got my Dad (http://www.stratosec.com/Forum/member.php/1047-Paul-Eustace) to join the SEC.

Here are the latest pics.

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Bernard

20-05-2015, 10:52

Well done .......... Good luck with iva !!

john

30-05-2015, 08:56

Yes, good luck on Wednesday.
Thanks for suggestion on Clio door check straps!

Sando

30-05-2015, 10:42

Looking good Michael, great to see it being finished off and getting on the road.
One thing to think about for IVA is that the front indicators are also visible from the side for the test. Maybe mounted on a block to bring them forward? Also hazards need to be visible when the front and rear clams are open, so short retaining straps or different mounting point for the test may also help.
if you still have the 'Nose' on the alloy X1/9 clam clips you may find these may need rounding off or nose removing so that they meet the radius requirements as they are contactable.
hope that helps
Rob

MichaelEustace

30-05-2015, 22:16

Thanks for the advice Rob, much appreciated. Have passed it on to my Dad to keep him busy for the next few days.

NoCorseChris

01-06-2015, 10:36

It was back in 2005, and SVA, not IVA, but when I had my Corse tested I had to remove the side windows as I had no documentary evidence that they were made of 'suitable safety glazing' and of course, they had no markings on them. Yours may be different (marked) or you may have suitable supporting documentation and be OK. Mine also had a problem with the front tyre not being covered by the arch, right at the front, where the plan of the arch turns inwards, part of the tyre was exposed. The inspector looked at it, scratched his chin and suggested that I might like to double check the tracking as it appeared to be toeing out a lot......after he repeated that and I finally twigged what he was on about...a quick handful of toe-in sorted it.... Again, that one is very dependent on what rims & tyres you have.

I too went with very short straps on opening panels - top tip that one.

Looking at the quality of the build, I expect the examiner will be looking for ways to pass it, not ways to fail it.

Good luck - not long now!!

Paul Eustace

06-06-2015, 00:55

Michael (my son) and I had a great day at the Norwich IVA test centre on Wednesday. Dennis, our tester, was a great guy and made the entire IVA experience good fun and informative. We didn't pass but only due to relatively easy issues to resolve. My car was the second Stratos he has seen at Norwich and he has worked their for many years.

1. My terribly old rear fog lamp was 'E' marked but not with the additional 'F' marking so at this point we knew we could not pass.

2. The very cool front DRL and Indicators are above 350mm high at the centre but the measurement is taken from the bottom of the lamp. Although thanks to the advice on this forum their positioning was good. We could have increased the front suspension preload and jacked the front of the car up but I there was no point. I now have smaller, slimmer indicators to mount as high as possible.

3. The front clam opens too far pointing the headlights at the ground making the car invisible if broken down in the dark! We knew we could shorten the restraining straps and pass but due to (1) we didn't bother.

4. One of the bottom front suspension bolts wasn't quite long enough to fill the nyloc completely. This was a 'fair cop' and very obvious when the car was up on the hoist. Ironically these 9/16 UNF bolts were part of the original kit! I now have longer bolts.

5. The steering self centring didn't perform as it should. In my driveway it worked but I suspect the gradient of my driveway helped. I have ordered new ball joints and I will increase the camber and see if that helps. The rack is well greased and the pinion appears to be set up correctly. I have never been convinced that the lower balljoint is correct but a thread on this forum pointed me at the correct part number.....

6. When putting the car on the trailer I noticed that I was doing 20mph. The speedo had consistently read correctly in first and second gear on the drive. During the test the speedo was very erratic and the nail in the coffin was doing 20mph standing still! I suspect a bad earth as the rev counter was also erratic.

7. The drivers door mirror needs to be positioned further out as the cone placed on the ground behind the car, directly inline with the off side, cannot be seen as the rear wing is in the way. Easy to fix.

We look forward to returning to Norwich soon. Michael has some photography of the day and he will likely post these soon. Paul

john

06-06-2015, 09:28

Hi Paul,
Well as you say nothing too onerous to sort out there.
Guess it's a little disappointing but you already know it should be a breeze when you go back.
We've often said on here that certain issues are open to interpretation by different inspectors but sounds like you have had a decent guy there who alas could not pass due to straightforward stuff and you've accepted it quite correctly that way.
I'm no expert but I think it will be Caster angle on the front you need to change. Adjust the trailing link length. Maybe your bottom ball joint is wrong and you are not getting enough articulation in the joint to get enough Caster?
As I said I'm no expert and preferred to leave initial set up on Frederics Corse to Blink Motorsport, only a mile from my workshop. I have a print out of the settings they achieved so will try and post a picture up for you shortly.
Has worked pretty well on initial road use.

john

06-06-2015, 09:52

Here you go. Hope you can read it ok.
The settings I asked for were Craig's suggestions.
Blink confirmed that these were very much the same settings they use on an Elise and very similar to the MX5's they prepare.

Paul Eustace

06-06-2015, 13:48

Thanks John for posting this information. It is great to know what an initial set up should look like. My initial set up was 1 degree negative camber and 4.5 degrees positive castor, spookily close to your configuration.

I have 1 degree of toe-in and I see that you run parallel.

I will double check my measurements, fit the new ball joints and then remeasure and test the outcome.

I am suspicious of the bottom ball joint and await the replacement delivery early next week. Paul

Strat Fan

06-06-2015, 17:37

john

07-06-2015, 12:01

With regards to the rear settings, the set up John has posted is very agressive on the rear (the front is fine), the rear toe is marginally more than I would start with & the rear camber is way more than I would look for on a road car.

Good luck with the retest!

Yes. More than I would want too in an ideal world, but a work in progress. Definitely more than Paul would want on A Stradale style on what size rear tyre?

Strat Fan

07-06-2015, 12:45

Yes. More than I would want too in an ideal world, but a work in progress. Definitely more than Paul would want on A Stradale style on what size rear tyre?
I think the Corse "S" cars did run quite aggressive rear toe settings so these would probably be fine, it's the camber that is not ideal & I appreciate that this is out of your control currently on Frederics car.
A strut type suspension system offers less camber gain in bump than the equivalent double wishbone set up so it is common to see more static negative camber on strut equipped track based cars to help compensate for the increased roll generated where the cornering loads & grip are greater but this wouldn't be suitable to a road car where the car spends substantially more time heading in a straight line.

turbonutter

07-06-2015, 15:04

I think the Corse "S" cars did run quite aggressive rear toe settings so these would probably be fine, it's the camber that is not ideal & I appreciate that this is out of your control currently on Frederics car.
A strut type suspension system offers less camber gain in bump than the equivalent double wishbone set up so it is common to see more static negative camber on strut equipped track based cars to help compensate for the increased roll generated where the cornering loads & grip are greater but this wouldn't be suitable to a road car where the car spends substantially more time heading in a straight line.

The corse settings recommended by Steve greenwood for the S are on my website http://m.turbonutter.net/site/mobile?dm_path=%2F&fw_sig_permission_level=0&fw_sig_api_key=522b0eedffc137c934fc7268582d53a1&fw_sig=d42ea1cd017b06106af4b1163b98e42d&fw_sig_time=1387611367369&fw_sig_url=http://www.turbonutter.net/&fw_sig_site=78041420&fw_sig_premium=1&fw_sig_permissions=none&fw_sig_social=1&fw_sig_potential_abuse=1&fw_sig_locale=en-US&fw_sig_session_key=7720ee27c5d035997841b2b5205bd063f3749593e27722e4ddaf5ce51581e9fc-78041420&fw_sig_access_token=f71bf35c29dcb11a6e279a83aefbb9809c55d909&fw_sig_tier=1&fw_sig_is_admin=0&fb_sig_network=fw#1022

The I settings are there as well, but not sure who gave me those.

My S ran a touch more toe and 7 deg front castor....

MichaelEustace

08-06-2015, 14:17

Some video from the IVA test day: https://www.facebook.com/michael.eustace/videos/10155663209960483/?l=3597902876717517852

Car unloaded outside the Norwich test centre:

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During the test, the headlights were found to be pointing down too much, so we adjusted the headlamps themselves, which ran out of adjustment so we just lengthened the arms on the headlamp opening mechanism - hence why they're not quite flush in the closed position shown below. We'll sort this once the car has passed IVA.
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The other Stratos that has previously been through the test centre...
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...which was on the Norwich test centre's Very Cool Wall.
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Cadami

13-07-2015, 22:29

Hi guys, some more updates...

Doors are now hung. Took the best part of a weekend getting them to line up - very fiddly. We initially used the the original Litton door brackets, but since the pics below were taken, they've been swapped for items from Napier Sport purchased a couple of years ago, which are much stronger. The hinges are Litton items and we used Renault Clio straps, which work very well.

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Do the Clio door straps operate to the full range of movement as per the original Clio application? I.E. Is the 2 stage "checking" mechanism deployed when the door's opened? .

Paul Eustace

14-10-2015, 20:25

Sorry for such a delayed reply. The door check straps are actually 'Peugeot 206 Door Hinge Stop Check Strap Front 3DR 5DR N/S O/S 9181C8'. These may well be shared with other cars but these are the ones I ordered! On the drivers door I shortened the check strap by cutting and welding an overlap that resulted in the fully open position providing a few millimetres clearance from the front clam shell.

The passenger door doesn't open quite so far. The passenger door only has one stage of opening but the drivers door has two stages.

Paul Eustace

14-10-2015, 21:13

Michael and I now have the car through the IVA test and the certificate and registration documentation is with the DVLA team.

We learnt a few things along the way:
To improve the speedometer accuracy I mounted my VDO speedometer inductive sensor on the gearbox lined up with a Fiat Ducato reluctor ring that I mounted on the differential flange. 54 teeth per revolution results in a really smooth and accurate speedometer. I also ran a screened cable for the speedometer wiring as the speedo was susceptible to interference resulting in the needle flickering whilst at a standstill.
The VDO tachometer was erratic when driven from my Bosch distributor with inductive pickup and electronic amplification! A simple diode in the tachometer feed results in a smooth rev counter needle.
I at last brought the correct size springs (Coilover Spring Faulkner 10.5 Inches Long - 2.25 Inch Inside Diameter | FRS-105-200) for my front Leda shocks and now I can mount the shocks the right way up.
I fitted new front suspension ball joints, top and bottom, plus repacked the Litton steering rack with EP grease. The front steering is now really nice and self centring is as it should be.
I have re-aligned the front suspension to 10 minutes toe in, 40 minutes negative camber, 4 degrees of castor. The rear suspension has 10 minutes of toe in and 1 degree of negative camber.
I have 205/50VR15's on the front and 225/50VR15's on the rear. I am currently running 16psi in the front and 20psi in the rear but I suspect these are too high. 350kgs front axle and 540kgs rear with full fuel tanks, 90litres.
I fitted rear mudguards to meet the wheel covering requirements.
Guy Croft solved my over fuelling problems by recommending that I fit a fuel pressure regulator. My engine ran fine with just a couple of gallons in the fuel tanks but when I brimmed the tanks for the IVA test I could not meet the emissions test. The Silver Top road specification fuel pump is able to overcome the Weber DCOE 45 needle valves and neat fuel drips from the accelerator pump jets! A Malpassi Filter King from Northampton Motor Sport cured this issue and we sailed through the emissions test.

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Photograph shows the reluctor ring on the differential flange and the speedometer inductive pickup mounted in my bracket.
Whilst I am waiting for the DVLA to process my paperwork and provide me with a registration number I have a few other things to do:

I am currently working on a steady bar for the engine. I have not used the Lancia head mounted solution as this leads to head gasket issues. I have designed a bell housing mounted solution. I will post some photographs soon.

john

14-10-2015, 21:53

Hi Paul. Well done on the IVA.
Good tip on the reluctor ring. I guess the more pulses there are the more accurate and steady the signal?
Do you have the welded top front shock bracket or bolt on triangular brackets?
What open and closed lengths are the front shocks?
I did use Clio check links. Bit fiddly to fit but do the job well. Can post pic if you like?

Strat Fan

14-10-2015, 21:57

Corse S's always had the welded on front damper brackets, the I's were the ones with the bolt on option. (Citation needed).

john

14-10-2015, 22:19

Well that's exactly what I thought, but as it happens, I put the phone down only half an hour ago after talking to someone with a different set up!
Hence the question....

Strat Fan

14-10-2015, 22:27

Post Litton then?

john

14-10-2015, 22:39

Steve Greenwood era.

ProtoTipo

15-10-2015, 08:59

Steve Greenwood era.

Yes, because I've just noticed that the gearshift on this car is the same as the one I have now (ex Tom R. Allora). I thought it was a one off, but obviously not.
I once had a chat with the first owner of Tom's Allora, and he described it as a 'Litton'.

Strat Fan

15-10-2015, 10:33

Paul's car is unquestionably a Litton & quite an early one at that.
The gear linkage you describe is a Litton part for sure, I remember boxes of those laser parts in the Litton workshop back in the late '80's, the yellow demonstrator car was fitted with the same set up.
I remember working on an Allora in the Litton workshop but that was a Yellow car. It had Lada top front wishbones that were interfering with the Compomotive split rim wheels.

Paul Eustace

15-10-2015, 12:05

The front shock top mount is welded on. Steve Greenwood gave me a couple of 'temporary front springs' with 2.25" ID but unmatched rates (300 and 350lbs) and promised to send me the correct 200lb springs later. These did eventually arrive but I didn't fit them for years and recently I realised they were 2.5" ID.

I will measure the Leda shocks as I don't appear to have the specification in my paperwork. I would have liked them to be 10mm shorter.

With the correct springs fitted the track rod arms almost touch the top link at full droop plus full lock but they do miss by 3mm. I have to be careful with steering rack gaiters as the previous version I used did get caught in the gap when testing in the workshop on axle stands! If this proves to be an issue I will consider limiting the steering lock, move the top mount up or a shorter shock. Anyone had any issues with front shock length?

The gear change was I believe a Steve Greenwood creation. For some reason I designed my own gear change solution in the car but I liked Steve's gearbox solution.

john

15-10-2015, 12:36

Yes Paul. Many issues with Corse front shock lengths and suspension travel. Everyone seems to have ended up with something different over time.
Always useful to compare notes!

Strat Fan

15-10-2015, 15:57

I will measure the Leda shocks as I don't appear to have the specification in my paperwork. I would have liked them to be 10mm shorter.

With the correct springs fitted the track rod arms almost touch the top link at full droop but they do miss by 3mm. I have to be careful with steering rack gaiters as the previous version I used did get caught in the gap when testing in the workshop on axle stands! If this proves to be an issue I will consider limiting the steering lock, move the top mount up or a shorter shock. Anyone had any issues with front shock length?

I specced a front coil over with a 16" open length & 100mm of travel on a Corse "S" chassis I built up, the tyre diameter was 605mm this will be slightly larger than your wheel tyre combination, it may be that you simply run with less ground clearance.

Paul Eustace

16-10-2015, 12:17

My Leda shocks are approximately 410mm open length and appear to have 125mm of travel before the bump stop comes into play.

Darkspeed

16-10-2015, 16:14

Corse S's always had the welded on front damper brackets, the I's were the ones with the bolt on option. (Citation needed).

Not on the "I" chassis number 33 oddball - welded front and rear. ;)

Paul Eustace

25-10-2015, 21:45

Whilst I am waiting for my registration application to be processed by the DVLA K&R team I have been working through my jobs list.

I have fitted my engine steady bar and the clutch footrest.

I extended the standard Lancia Beta engine bar and brought new bushes from Beta Boyz. The Lancia bracket which is normally mounted on the end of the cylinder head has been welded to a plate I fabricated and bolted to the bell housing. If the steady bar had remained on the cylinder head it is highly likely that the head gasket would fail due to the stress the steady bar applies to the end of the head.

I have also correctly aligned the headlamp shells in the pods and now have the headlamp pods nicely aligned with the front clam bodywork.

The countdown continues to a registration number plate!

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Paul Eustace

08-11-2015, 14:02

Last week I received my V5C and I am on the road! I am delighted with the way it drives and even in 'Engine Break-In' mode the engine is really crisp and is clearly going to be lots of fun. No oil or coolant leaks, plugs look ok, gear change is a little stiff but will likely improve, the new drivers seat set up with 'Recaro Double Locking Runners' has provided slightly increased headroom and adjustment to enable my sons to drive!

I have at this stage only driven around the local lanes but unfortunately I must now return the car to my workshop for a couple of days whilst I modify the rear clam bodywork. The bodywork does not have sufficient clearance to accommodate the exhaust system as you can see from the photograph below.

When Lance of OJZ Engineering discussed the design of this system we agreed that I would modify the rear bodywork to provide clearance. I was fooling myself by hoping that the bodywork heat shield and Zircotec coating would suffice. There are no short cuts!

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Paul Eustace

17-11-2015, 11:28

Here are some photographs of the fibreglass modification to the rear clam bodywork to accommodate the exhaust system.
I now have a good 50mm plus of clearance between the exhaust headers and the bodywork. The increase in airflow in the engine bay can only help maintain an acceptable engine bay temperature.
I glassed the recess from inside the boot is case you are wondering how it was stuck in place!
After a good few miles driving I checked the bodywork temperature and 52C was the highest I measured so I am happy with that.

My current problem is a coolant hose collapse! When ticking over and running slowly, less than 3,000rpm, the coolant hoses maintain their form and coolant temperature is ok. When I hit 4,000rpm the temperature gauge starts to climb and as soon as I slow the revs the temperature falls back in a couple of seconds to 80C! I believe the water pump is sucking a hose flat. When I stop and jump out with my infrared temperature gauge all the coolant pipes are at around 50C with the exception of the top rail!

The car will tick-over all day at a maximum of 85C!

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Paul Eustace

07-02-2017, 00:23

I have finally resolved my over heating problems. I installed a Davies Craig electric water pump (EWP80) in tandem with the MonteCarlo mechanical coolant pump.
I drilled two 5mm holes in the in-head thermostat to enable the EWP80 to run even when the thermostat is closed.
I installed the EWP in the radiator return pipework by the radiator. The pump is orientated such that air cannot be trapped near the pump gland.
I have replaced the cylinder head over temperature switch with the Davies Craig temperature sensor putting the sensor right at the top of the cylinder head.
I fitted the pump controller in the centre console in front of the gear lever.
I am currently using a target coolant temperature of 85C. At 65C the pump runs for 10 seconds at 6 volts and then lies dormant for 10 seconds. At 80C the pump runs at 6 volts and increases linearly to 12 volts at 85C.
The coolant temperature now remains between 75C and 78C. The oil temperature is very similar.
I have also applied Zircotec's ZircoFlex sheet to chassis tubes and the coolant pump inlet pipework to stop the exhaust manifold heating the coolant.
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john

07-02-2017, 07:54

Hi Paul, good to know you have got on top of these problems.
Pretty normal trials and tribulations for the car builder I'd say.
No matter how much planning and thought you do at the build stage there are still problems which road use shows up.
There is some debate about the need for a thermostat at all if you fit the Davies Craig complete with controller.
The initial slow/intermittent running is to allow quick warm up even without a thermostat.

Paul Eustace

07-02-2017, 22:18

Hi John,
You make a good point regarding the need for a thermostat.

With the benefit of hindsight I would not use a mechanical coolant pump at all. I would remove the impeller and shaft from the water pump and weld shut the hole. I would install a larger Davies, Craig or similar electric coolant pump in the radiator return hose and use the controller to intelligently move the coolant.

I have taken the easy route and am running the mechanical and electric pumps in tandem. By setting the electric pump's controller target temperature 5C higher than I need I am using the electric pump to assist the mechanical pump when the in head thermostat begins to open at 74C, the thermostat is fully open at 80C. The two 5mm holes I have drilled in the thermostat definitely allow coolant to flow when the thermostat is closed as the top hose was nicely warm long before the thermostat opened.

If I remove the thermostat, without removing the mechanical pump, I fear the mechanical pump will prolong warm-up and will over cool the engine under low to medium load.

It was raining today so I installed a grommet on the gear change shaft to seal the firewall and help reduce the noise! One less task on my 'to do' list.

john

07-02-2017, 22:28

Ah yes! You are right Paul. With the mechanical pump still operational you would indeed get a longer warm up without the thermostat in place.

Guy Mayers

07-02-2017, 23:20

Glad you've sorted it out - I found that the mod that made the biggest difference to cooling as ducting between the radiator and the nose of the car, forcing everything that came through the grille through the matrix. The biggest gap is over the top of the radiator..

LM mic

08-02-2017, 07:36

It was raining today so I installed a grommet on the gear change shaft to seal the firewall and help reduce the noise! One less task on my 'to do' list.

Seems you will be ready for the show season !!!
Nice to watch one more achived car !!
Are you planing to do some club meeting ? will be nice to meet you at Stoneileght !!!:)

Paul Eustace

09-02-2017, 00:25

I am definitely keen to attend some events this year. Stoneleigh may be a little early for me as I am currently driving around locally building confidence. Today I have 150 miles on the clock. I will soon fill the accusump with oil and this evening I changed the gearbox oil.
I will let you know if I am able to make Stoneleigh.

LM mic

09-02-2017, 07:09

:o:o:):cool:

Paul Eustace

15-09-2017, 22:41

My late summer project involved upgrading my front brakes. I originally fitted Fiat 500 front brakes and discs as this was a fairly straight forward installation but the single piston caliper was never going to make the car stand on it's nose.
The following pictures show my solution to fitting HiSpec Billet calipers using HiSpec 300mm * 24mm rotors and 35mm offset bells. I am currently using a 5mm wheel spacer but I am not sure these are necessary. I recently removed all the excess thread from the screws joining my 3 piece Compomotive wheels. In doing so I have
gained another 4mm of wheel to caliper clearance.

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Paul Eustace

18-09-2017, 22:06

Lancialulu

19-09-2017, 08:43

I have been asked to post some photographs of my rear uprights. My car is a very early Litton using the Beta front upright at the rear. Steve Greenwood arranged for it to be modified by removing the bottom ball joint and welding a tube in it's place to connect the wishbone.
I have Leda adjustable struts with an elliptical camber adjustment facility. I just about manage to reduce the camber to -1 degree. I really should buy replacement adjustable top mounts for the struts.
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Paul, although my car is an early Transformer it seems to have similar rear struts with those (near useless) camber cams and Leda shock absorbers. We should compare when we meet up! How much droop do your struts provide??

Phubb

16-01-2018, 14:12

Doesn't the Peter Hubbard Allora beat any Corse for that title. (kit purchaser = current owner)
I'll bet there are still some unfinished Transformer's bought in the 80s and still not sold on? Although I can't think of any?

I just came across this thread and thought I would give an update.
Well after 30 years I still have my Allora although its not running due to - well everything not working or seized.
I will be commencing a bit of a rebuild later this year to get it moving and then look at doing a few upgrades to brakes, suspension etc.
My big issue is the windscreen has delaminated in the corners and I somehow suspect I wont get another.

I will be watching my old mate Norman Briers who is in the throws of a LB after having an Allora for a while which amazingly used a donor car with the same reg as mine, apart from the last number with 664R and mine was 667R.
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Paul Eustace

03-03-2018, 23:43

I have now finished the rear brake upgrade on my car. I have replaced the very tired Lancia Beta rear brakes with a HiSpec solution.

After speaking with Alex from HiSpec I decided on HiSpec UltraLite 4 pot calipers and HiSpec 300mm x 24mm ventilated rotors with custom bells.

I really wanted to remove the hand brake cables from my engine bay as the central tunnel was really crowded and a nightmare to access. The HiSpec Electronic hand brake Spot Caliper was a very attractive solution.

I checked and double checked I had the required clearances between the wheel and the calipers and the hand brake caliper to the inner wheel arch liner and chassis. Then I placed the order with HiSpec....

When the calipers and rotors arrived I set the calipers up on the rear hubs and fabricated caliper hanger brackets.

I was very pleased with the outcome as the calipers are bang on the centrelines and the handbrake works just fine. Due to the awful weather I have had very little chance to bed the brakes in but Spring is not too far away.

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The little red button on the extreme right of the centre console operates the hand brake.
Currently awaiting delivery of the flexible hoses to plumb in the hydraulic handbrake.

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My next major project in the installation of a LifeLine Zero 360 3kg Mechanical in car fire extinguisher kit. When I install this I will redesign and vastly simplify the centre console. This version originally supported the mechanical hand brake and this limited the height of the console.

Paul Eustace

16-03-2018, 17:23

Here is my Lifeline 360 fire extinguisher kit recently arrived from Merlin Motorsport. I hope to find time to install this over the next week or so.

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Lifeline recommend fitting the external fire extinguisher control and and battery cutoff control on the front scuttle. If anyone has any advice on locating the external controls of fitting the kit please let me know.

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Redline

16-03-2018, 17:48

Mine's a ListerBell, but here's where I put mine.

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Not that I'm a pessimist or anything, but I also put the decals onto the bulkhead underneath the bonnet (in case the bonnet is

not there when you want to know what's what!).

Mark

Guy Mayers

16-03-2018, 18:54

When I converted to LHD a couple of years back I moved the wiper to the other side of the scuttle plinth. That left a gaping hole from the original spindle position so I used that for the plumber in extinguisher button. I guess you could put a mechanical system pul handle there too?
Guy

Allora#2

19-03-2018, 20:06

Here is mine! :)

Paul Eustace

19-04-2018, 00:32

Well I have now installed a Lifeline 360 3kg fire extinguisher. I selected this system as the kit includes everything you need and uses Novec™1230 suppressant.

The push fit pipework is really easy to use although I did buy some additional 90 degree elbows to make the pipe runs as neat as possible.

I fitted the cockpit nozzles into the footwell on the heater air distribution box. Two of the engine bay nozzles are located either side of the engine with one of these pointing at the exhaust system. The third engine bay nozzle is aimed at the carburettors. The fuel tanks get plenty of coverage.

Whilst installing this system I took the opportunity to redesign the centre console and improve the gear change mount points. The gear change is much improved.

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Lancialulu

19-04-2018, 10:05

Paul will you bring to the Bell today for a nose!

Tim

Well I have now installed a Lifeline 360 3kg fire extinguisher. I selected this system as the kit includes everything you need and uses Novec™1230 suppressant.

The push fit pipework is really easy to use although I did buy some additional 90 degree elbows to make the pipe runs as neat as possible.

I fitted the cockpit nozzles into the footwell on the heater air distribution box. Two of the engine bay nozzles are located either side of the engine with one of these pointing at the exhaust system. The third engine bay nozzle is aimed at the carburettors. The fuel tanks get plenty of coverage.

Whilst installing this system I took the opportunity to redesign the centre console and improve the gear change mount points. The gear change is much improved.

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Paul Eustace

05-05-2019, 23:51

Below are some photographs of my recent work to fit an OBP accelerator pedal, finally install the remote brake balance bar control and fit a partial restrictor into the Laminova oil/coolant heat exchanger.
The oil temperature would rise to 90-95C when using the power. The coolant temperature always remains constant at 75-80C so I surmised that the Laminova needed more coolant passing through it's capillaries.
Having driven a couple of hundred miles since fitting the partial restrictor I can confirm the oil temperature never exceeds 85C and usually runs around 80C.
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Paul Eustace

24-05-2020, 22:35

With a little time on my hands I decided to sort out a few issues. Front clam poor fitment, mud flaps to big and ugly, car is too high and the rear dampers are shot. The car has been on the road for 5 years so it is about time for action.
I modified the front clam mounts and removed the spacers I had fitted between the chassis and the front clam. I am very pleased that I managed level the front of the clam and move it right to get a reasonably good fit.
I cut down the mud flaps as they had remained in their, 'miles to big', original state which ensured I passed the IVA inspection.
Sent the rear Leda dampers off to Leda for testing and servicing. I received a very impressive report and Leda is working on returning them with modern internals. I have also bought shorter springs to enable me to attain the correct ride height.
I have bought a pair of 15" Protech Shocks for the front, again with shorter springs to enable me to get the front ride height down. I am awaiting delivery of some bushes from a local machine shop as I need to raise the damper mount on the track control arms. The modern alloy shocks require more point clearance than my existing antique steel dampers.
I also checked camber, castor and bump steer, just for fun.
I am hoping the FORC Snetterton track evening goes ahead at the end of June as I would like to take part. I entered the FORC Snetterton 100 Sprint last year and I want to get the suspension sorted before this years run.
I should say 'Thanks', to Craig White for his help in determining the correct damper and spring specifications.

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Bernard

24-05-2020, 23:11

All looking very impressive Paul !

colleyv12

26-05-2020, 13:33

Paul, how did you adjust the front clam point, been looking at mine all weekend, tried adding and removing shims, moving pivot point etc, but is doesn't want to move towards the passenger side at all

Considering just extending the bonnet edge out to compensate

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Paul Eustace

27-05-2020, 23:52

Paul Eustace

01-06-2020, 00:44

I repositioning the front damper mounts on the track control arms by welding bushes a few mm's higher than the original mount points. I had to do this as I replaced the original steel dampers with Protech alloy 400 series dampers. The alloy damper mounts require more clearance. The Protech dampers are 1.5" shorter than the original dampers. I had far too much droop and needed shorter springs to enable me to achieve a lower ride height.
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colleyv12

08-06-2020, 15:31

Hi,
I needed my front clam to move right. I removed all the shims, washers, spacers. Then, with the LHS bolt just in it's nut far enough to engage the nyloc I simply wound the RHS bolt in until the clam lined up. Next I tightened the LHS bolt just enough to take up all the slack. You don't really need the spacers as each bolt prevents the clam moving left or right. One day I will probably get around the fitting them again but every time I remove the front clam they are a real pain.

Thanks Paul, think yours is different to mine, or mine is wrong, I attached a drawing of the setup, but the bolt that goes through the frame goes into the threaded both sides bolt then the clam, then a washer then the large nut

But the bolt is not threaded in the frame so tightening it or loosening it just moves the bolt in and out, doesn't affect the position of the part that goes through the clam, any ideas

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john

08-06-2020, 16:39

I think the idea of the big ( M20?) bolt and large diameter washers was to allow some adjustment of its position in the fibreglass. You drilled the fibreglass oversize, assembled the M20 bolt, washers and nut, then adjusted the position of body against the pivot point in the frame before clamping them up tight.
On Frederics car I just used the bolt through the frame as a pivot point and didnt fit a nut. I drilled it through and put an R clip through the bolt shank on the inside of the chassis pivot tube to stop it sliding out. To remove the front end then you just pulled the R clips, slid the bolts out and lifted away.
I dont recall a lot if effort to get it all lined up but maybe I was just lucky. I had done a fair bit of re-shaping on the front clam so probably got rid of mis-fit there.
If you have enough thread on the M20 bolts you could add washers behind the bolt head to align the clam laterally, then use the pivot bolts as I did.

colleyv12

08-06-2020, 17:54

About right, the clam is over drilled and I have movement up/down etc, but it is not moving the clam around to the left so the rear left tip of the front clam is too far forward from the door aperature

Think i will get the fiberglass out and re-profile the trailing edge of the clam to make it look right

john

08-06-2020, 19:15

I think that was more or less standard practice on Corse bodywork, Steve.
Probably a lot less trouble in the end.

Paul Eustace

10-06-2020, 09:59

My clam has about 12-15mm of clearance, each side, between the 'Clam' and 'Frame' in your sketch. I have simply tightened one bolt until there is 1mm of clearance on one side, this moved the clam 11-14mm to the right in my case. This was all I needed to centre the clam on the windscreen.
Looking at your drawing I would have thought you could do the same?
If the tube welded to the chassis, is the only thing preventing the clam moving sideways, I would consider grinding this in preference to playing with fibreglass.....

Paul Eustace

10-06-2020, 23:05

I have now completed renewing my suspension setup. I have fitted new Protech front dampers and my refurbished Leda rear struts. With shorter springs I now have been able to set the correct ride heights after driving around an elevated car for the past few years. Thanks to Craig for helping me to make the correct spring choices.
You might be amused to see my rigid rear dampers....1639216393163941639516396

Paul Eustace

17-07-2020, 13:16

You might be interested in listening to my lovely Guy Croft tuned Lancia 8V engine on my first ever track day, well evening.
https://youtu.be/dfroXQxIuFc

Stratos Fear

17-07-2020, 18:36

Sounds great - and that looked like a lot of fun !

LPH_UK

17-07-2020, 21:42

What size is the engine? 2l?

Sounds very similar to my 200hp k-series rover (on ITBs) that I had in the Lotus 340R. Lovely noise.

Paul Eustace

17-07-2020, 23:59

Yes, it is a 2.0 litre. It is from a 1978 Lancia Beta. Twin DCOE 45's is what makes the sound special. It makes around 175-180bhp.

Lancialulu

18-07-2020, 09:17

hollytree

08-12-2023, 17:46

Hello Paul,

As John says it is extra caster you require for the self centering on the steering. If you have already set the bump steer with the caster as it is set now then you could disconnect the swing bolt where it attaches to the TCA and wind it in say 3 full turns, the thread is a 2mm pitch & every 2 full turns will add approx 1 degree of caster so this would increase the caster to approx 6 degrees. This way after the test you can wind the swing bolt back to where you are now safe in the knowledge that you don't need to reset the bumpsteer. Quite often a new ball joint has a reasonable amount of stiction which can hinderthe self centering, once the ball joint loses its "newness" then things will free up, not helpful for IVA but something I have witnessed in the past which could be worth mentioning to the examiner on the retest.
If you have 1 degree of toe in then this could possibly affect the self centering too, 10minutes is a better starting point for the front axle.
With regards to the rear settings, the set up John has posted is very agressive on the rear (the front is fine), the rear toe is marginally more than I would start with & the rear camber is way more than I would look for on a road car.

Good luck with the retest!

Corse I
I got some front damper mount plates made to drop the top mount by 1" as the front trailing arm was only about 1/4" from the chassis rail and on bump was hitting it. If I jacked the spring collars then I had no droop. Now I have about 2" bumps and 1'1/2" droop and it feels good.
I have just had it set on one of those new fangled laser jigs.
I have got all the settings pretty close to those in the Corse I build manual, however:-

I started with caster FL 2"35' FR 3"31'
To increase these towards the Corse I suggestion of 3"-5" the trailing arms had to be wound out to lengthen them and now both L&R are 4"30' BUT the lower rear wishbone arms are now very much to the rear of the little tunnel they sit in just in front of the bulkhead.

Lengthening the trailing arms to increase caster does not tie up with what Craig says above when he says "wind it in", which implies shortening the trailing arm.

Am I doing something wrong?
Am I missing something?

Strat Fan

08-12-2023, 17:53

Corse I
I got some front damper mount plates made to drop the top mount by 1" as the front trailing arm was only about 1/4" from the chassis rail and on bump was hitting it. If I jacked the spring collars then I had no droop. Now I have about 2" bumps and 1'1/2" droop and it feels good.
I have just had it set on one of those new fangled laser jigs.
I have got all the settings pretty close to those in the Corse I build manual, however:-

I started with caster FL 2"35' FR 3"31'
To increase these towards the Corse I suggestion of 3"-5" the trailing arms had to be wound out to lengthen them and now both L&R are 4"30' BUT the lower rear wishbone arms are now very much to the rear of the little tunnel they sit in just in front of the bulkhead.

Lengthening the trailing arms to increase caster does not tie up with what Craig says above when he says "wind it in", which implies shortening the trailing arm.

Am I doing something wrong?
Am I missing something?
Extending the front trailing links reduces the castor unless your upright was already leaning forwards (negative castor) rather than backwards (positive castor).
From what you describe then it sounds like your Track Control Arm is leaning back too far and that the top ball joint is actually farther forwards than the lower ball joint?
The image below was pulled from the www for the image but some of the text is relevant as well, just disregard the bit about power steering.
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hollytree

08-12-2023, 18:01

Craig
Thanks
That is what is "visually" looks like, but how can that happen?
There is no adjustment in the top ball joint position.
If I had to lengthen the trailing arm to increase caster, should the machine be recording it a Negative caster?

PS when do you want me to drive down

hollytree

08-12-2023, 18:41

Darkspeed

08-12-2023, 18:47

Corky had a bit of fun with Caster IIRC

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hollytree

08-12-2023, 19:10

I have just gone and wound the trailing arms in so the bottom wishbone arms are now towards the front of the tunnel.
Looking down on the top ball joint the bottom joint is now in front - positive caster.
Amazing how only a couple of inches of adjustment makes such a difference.
More annoyed the machine did not pick up Negative!

Well that all worked out well.
Just been up and down the dual carriageway at 90kph (I think my gauges are KPH ahem!)
All feels good.
I must have been on negative camber. I will have a word with the man on the fancy machine tomorrow