Brake Pads

[AndyH]

Hi,
I upgraded my brakes over the winter from 164 callipers / remote servo to Hi-Spec Billet 4 callipers with 41.2mm pistons.

Same front and back.... I got Ferodo DS2500 pads (recommended) to go with it.

I've managed to squeeze 5:1 pedal ration out of the HAWK std set-up (was 4:1).

The Ferodo pads were OK when warmed up, but not great for normal driving.
They also rattled in the callipers... solved by a self adhesive backing pad, but this gave a slight drag on the disc, so not great.

A work colleague who races Fiestas recommended Carbone Lorainne Pads... he'd swapped and thought they were great.

Constant friction co-efficient right across there temperature range, so sounded like what I was after.

I ordered a set of RC6 material pads and fitted them today.
The result is simply awesome braking... A fraction of the pedal pressure and just amazing braking, particularly at higher speeds.
The trade off can be a bit of squeal at low speeds, but so far, so good... No knocking, no squeal.
I suspect that they'll shred the discs, but for the miles I do I don't see this as a big problem.

I guess some of you are already aware of these pads, but I couldn't fine a post on this make, so thought I'd share.
Not cheap at £90 a wheel, but they are brilliant.

http://www.carbonelorrainebraking.co.uk

Andrew

[ChrisCar6]

Did you make your own mounting adapters for the front Andy?
I'm still using the 164 calipers at the front, but would like to change - do you have a design that works?

[AndyH]

Hi Chris,
I sent Hi-spec a front and rear hub... they measured them up and made an aluminium bracket that bolted on to the 164 mount.
Front worked first time.... rear took a second attempt by Hi-Spec to get it right, but they were very quick to remedy.

If you speak to Alex at Hi-Spec I bet he'll probably remember me and should be an easy job.
For info I went for 310mm discs and alloy bells... To fit a 16" rim, but there is loads of clearance and I bet a they'd fit in a 15" rim as well.

The best plan would be to fit a 15" wheel onto my car and check.

Andrew

[Strat Fan]

The Billet 4 lug type ca;ipers are easy to mount, I've fitted a set to a Corse S (same Fiat uptight) using a simple laser cut bracket & some threaded bosses, I mated these to Hispec 300mm discs & Hispec uni bells.
I do however think that the Monster 4 is the better caliper for the front axle of a Stratos rep due to its increased pad size but it is harder to mount due its radial fitment.
The Hispec RX caliper that both Phil & Andy have fitted is probably the best caliper Hispec have produced & runs the same pads as the Monster 4.

[AndyH]

Yes, the billet 4 is an easy mount.
I've just been out in the car again tonight and the stopping power with the CL pads (and Billet 4) is simply awesome. It just stands the Strat on its nose... No fuss... just stops (really quickly)
Works well for me.

[strat24v]

164 brakes are a chronic mismatch for a Stratos replica but when you haven't experienced a properly setup install on the same car, you'd never know.

[Strat Fan]

Hello Andy,

Yes I believe that that will be the case on the road, which is why I opted for the Billet 4 approach on the Corse S chassis I am doing. Neil also has the Billet 4's on his car so time will tell how they survive for him!
What I am trying to say is that on the road they will be fine (your pad choice will help a lot) but when you come to a track day scenario where the temperatures build up due to sustained usage & heavier braking then the smaller pad area will lead to them overheating quicker & you will suffer fade much sooner than with a larger pad area, The Monster 4 caliper is also a considerably stiffer body so will be far less prone to caliper flex.

Regards

[AndyH]

Hi,
Fair point Craig ref the track, but I'm optimistic that they'll hold up to whatever I throw at them. They're full blown race pads, so I'm not expecting issues, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I'm aiming to arrange a track day for probably early October.... Not sure where yet, but probably in Yorkshire (ish) or at Knockhill if I can find a date. Is anyone interested?
Regards
Andrew

[turbonutter]

Hello Andy,

Neil also has the Billet 4's on his car so time will tell how they survive for him!


Regards

So far so good with the Billet 4's and Green Stuff pads, but I have only been on Blyton Circuit.
I did have some Fade the first couple of times I went out on the track, after 4 or 5 laps I had to go back to the pits, but that was probably due to me driving to cautiously and trailing the brakes too much, as after those initial two times the brakes didnt fade again, even doing many more laps in a stint.

[ChrisCar6]

Hi,
Fair point Craig ref the track, but I'm optimistic that they'll hold up to whatever I throw at them. They're full blown race pads, so I'm not expecting issues, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I'm aiming to arrange a track day for probably early October.... Not sure where yet, but probably in Yorkshire (ish) or at Knockhill if I can find a date. Is anyone interested?
Regards
Andrew
keep me posted if you're organising anything at Knockhill!

[AndyH]

So far so good with the Billet 4's and Green Stuff pads, but I have only been on Blyton Circuit.
I did have some Fade the first couple of times I went out on the track, after 4 or 5 laps I had to go back to the pits, but that was probably due to me driving to cautiously and trailing the brakes too much, as after those initial two times the brakes didnt fade again, even doing many more laps in a stint.

I had Green Stuff pads in the 164 calipers and found exactly the same... If you trail on the brakes, they soon start to fade. Once I started to stomp on them and get off quickly, I didn't have an issue.
As John mentions above, now that I've changed to Hi-Spec, it does highlight how much of a compromise the 164 brakes are.
Andrew

[strat24v]

Martin Kift had suggested calipers with ever so slightly larger pistons on the front or at a push, the same size. Id guess the 164 caliper pistons were way bigger in area than the rears. Although you'd have enough effort front and back to pass iva, the braking effort and balance would be really skewed. Think Andy is one of very few who can comment on the difference, seems to back up Kifty's calcs.

[turbonutter]

Martin Kift had suggested calipers with ever so slightly larger pistons on the front or at a push, the same size. Id guess the 164 caliper pistons were way bigger in area than the rears. Although you'd have enough effort front and back to pass iva, the braking effort and balance would be really skewed. Think Andy is one of very few who can comment on the difference, seems to back up Kifty's calcs.

There was a long thread about this on the old site... I run 41.2mm front pistons & 38.6mm rear pistons, which gives a pretty central balance bar Using Martin's Calculations, with the Bar central I get 53% front & 47% rear, that is with equal sized Master Cylinders...

[Strat Fan]

There was a long thread about this on the old site... I run 41.2mm front pistons & 38.6mm rear pistons, which gives a pretty central balance bar Using Martin's Calculations, with the Bar central I get 53% front & 47% rear, that is with equal sized Master Cylinders...

I think its been covered on this site too.

[AndyH]

Hi,

My Billet 4 are the same piston size front and rear, but the front master cylinder is a smaller bore than the rear.

Andrew

[ChrisCar6]

This was Martin's comment on my setup.


With 57mm floating calipers your front piston area is 5103 mm^2 per caliper and with 4 x 36mm pistons the rear piston area is 4071 mm^2 per caliper.

With equal sized master cylinders this gives a brake balance of 56% front and 44% rear.

This depends a bit on your front/rear weight split, but using figures from other Strats, for the front and rears to lock at the same time at 0.9G negative acceleration the ideal ratio should be 52% front and 48% rear. By a small adjustment of the bias bar for more rear bias you can get 53.3% front and 46.7% rear which will mean the fronts lock up just before the fronts .

I use Alfa 24v front discs front and rear. Would no doubt gain a weight advantage from swapping to 4-pot fronts.
Currently using Greenstuff all round.

[strat24v]

Hi,

My Billet 4 are the same piston size front and rear, but the front master cylinder is a smaller bore than the rear.

Andrew
Martin had said my similar setup would be ok, same calipers and discs front and rear, one size smaller master cylinder on the front.

[NoCorseChris]

Another vote of confidence for Martin's calcs. Eventually(!) followed his advice properly on my car when I had it and the braking was excellent. For a long time I had it with way too much front brake compared to rear. Was a bit of a mish-mash of bits, but it worked great in the end. Can't recall the numbers I used now but it was what Martin told me to use. You certainly do need a good dose of rear brake capacity.

[Bernard]

Another vote of confidence for Martin's calcs. Eventually(!) followed his advice properly on my car when I had it and the braking was excellent. For a long time I had it with way too much front brake compared to rear. Was a bit of a mish-mash of bits, but it worked great in the end. Can't recall the numbers I used now but it was what Martin told me to use. You certainly do need a good dose of rear brake capacity.

Also Chris you have more rubber contact patch on the Rear (Grp4) even with the weight transfer moving to the front