View Full Version : Is the Lancia Beta lump worth any effort
I have a brilliant Hawk/transformer coming into my life and it was built with a Lancia Beta 2 liter in it. I am torn about keeping and driving it for a bit on this motor, or heading for the high country (Alfa or Ferrari 3 liter). Since it has been sitting, I will need to give the engine some attention if I intend to put any miles on it. Is it worth bumping compression and doing cams and carbs or will I find it unsatisfying and have wasted my money?
Any thoughts on whether the Ferrari v8 is worth an extra $8k? Both motors sound great and make similar power.
thanks!
Guy Mayers
17-12-2014, 23:19
If it's running with the current motor I'd suggest getting to know the car and it's build quality before you start spending serious money on it. A 2 litre Beta ought to produce 120bhp in standard (European) trim but might be as low as 85 if it's a low compression US/emissions motor. You'll end up spending a fortune building this motor up to a reasonable power level (higher compression pistons/inlet manifold with twin 40's and cams) but 180bhp is achievable. Guy Crofts book on the Twin Cam is recommended if you want to go this route.
Conversion to the V6 Alfa in 12 or 24 valve form should see these levels of power (and better torque) for similar money but with an unstressed motor. The downside is that there are some modifications needed to the chassis to fit the Alfa (or Ferrari) motor. New mounts, driveshaft spacers and relocated steady brackets plus upper gear linkage mount, the gear linkage also needs revision plus a new exhaust.
Long term the V6 is the route to go and it's something that I'm really glad I did to my Transformer/Hawk.
Guy
Guy Croft's books are very handy if you do modify the Beta unit. It lists which standard Fiat/Lancia pistons you can fit to raise your compression, plus just about anything else you can think of. There is also a lot of good info on his forum if it's still up and running, haven't checked for a while.
Allora#2
18-12-2014, 09:16
i am agree with Guy,
when i bought my car (ALLORA) it was with an Lancia Beta Volumex (140HP) and the car runs well,
but the engine sound and torque is not like a Stratos.
So i have decided to rebuild it with an V6 12V Alfa i remember it was a lot of work!
but when i drive it now i know it was the right decision.
saluti Enzo
For my Ten Pence worth...........
Eric started life with a 2000 Twink.... It was very "busy" through the gears... ie constantly changing gear for peak performance..... also the handling was quite "twitchy"..... light on the backend which exagerated liftoff oversteer
Once the V6 was installed the car seemed to "settle down" and with the extra torque the Eric was transformed into a "proper car"
Good luck with whatever you decide to do as we all have differing views.... it wouldn't do for us all to be the same !
Cheers
Phil
7611ERIC
A Volumex engine should be a straight swap, and they're not hard to get another few horsepower out of either. It's quite a torquey engine.
Guy Mayers
18-12-2014, 17:48
The Volumex engine is indeed a straight swap but they are getting much harder to find these days. Don't be tempted by a Fiat fitment though, it's a different set up due to the angle the Lancia lump is tipped back by. I also suspect that finding one in the USA might prove problematic! If you're going to update from a twink then the V6 is the way to go. If you've already got a Volumex then uprating it is very easy using 1600 cams, slightly larger choke on the carb and gearing up the supercharger, should be an easy 180 - 200 bhp.
Guy
Even a 164 engine is a problem. There are a couple but they are scattered far and wide. Keep in mind that I am almost 2000 miles from either coast and 1500 miles from the northern border if I am looking for only a domestic source. We did not get many Italian cars in the nineties. No Alfa's at all after 95'. No Lancias after 80'. Not sure when Fiat went away, but it was about that same time. The x19 was sold as a "Bertone" here.
I may have a line on a great parts car(164s), but it is 2100 miles away...
It shouldn't be expensive to get some pistons and cams, and you could save some cash by fitting them yourself. If it was me, I'd enjoy it as is for a while with maybe a few easy performance mods, while looking for and alternative powerplant and gearing up to modify the car, then when you're ready you'll have everything at hand.
Pistons from a 1585cc Lancia Beta engine will raise the 2litre engine compression to 10.8:1, and as stated above the cams from a 124 sport 1608 will give approx 8 more horsepower due to the longer duration. It all helps.
I carried out some Guy Croft mods on my old Volumex coupe and it went like a rocket, he knows his stuff when it comes to the normally aspirated twin cams.
Just checked Midwest Bayless, they have pistons and cams as per above.
Allora#2
19-12-2014, 10:34
i am not 100% sure but this engine looks like it works in an Stratos!
and it's easy to find in the states.
I have had a look and it is clear than I can get 50-100% more power from the little twin cam pretty cheaply. Vick Auto is in my home town and they offer cams, pistons, headwork etc. For $3500 I can "build" my 2 liter to get close to 200 hp. The downfall of that set-up will be the nature of a small displacement high output carb'ed engine. For close to the same money I can put in an 24 valve V6 with a bit more HP, loads more torque, a great sound and stock factory FI from Bosch. I just wanted to know if I should go straight for the displacement. The only real downside to the swap up to the 6 seems to be the weight, and that it will be a longer process than just slapping cams(with uprated springs to support them). pistons, and some sort of carbs. I could do ITB fuel injection instead of carbs for about $1k more on the 2 liter, but I would still be missing that torque.
I have found a 24v Alfa for sale. Price is good, now I am trying to figure out how good or bad this example is (how complete and how worn out).
I will get to know the car with the little 4. Maybe I will like it enough to keep it. It looks like almost 200 lbs of weight come on board to upgrade the motor. Adding weight and HP is not always a good thing. My truck has lots of power but is not much fun to drive...
i am not 100% sure but this engine looks like it works in an Stratos!
and it's easy to find in the states.
There are a lot of great motors that would work. A GM v6 is not high on my list. I was trying to stick with motors that had the right "flavor". If I just wanted cheap power I would pick up a Toyota 3sgte and slap that in there. My friend is able to get 400 whp out of those pretty easily and they are not difficult to locate at all.
Guy Mayers
19-12-2014, 13:32
Unless the long shaft fouls the chassis at full droop?
The transmission is the one that neil is running (e153)in its native application so I am guessing that it works.
The Slug
19-12-2014, 15:21
I think Phil has said in the thread that the extra weight helped to settle the car, making it better to drive.
Personally I would say go for the unstressed V6 engine. Take careful measurements with regards to the drive line and the chassis. and buy what you think is best for you.
Not much point in going the alfa route if you cant get spares, when you are able to get a good source of other v6 engines and parts, don't make life any harder for yourself than it needs to be.
Oddly I can get parts, just finding motors is a bit of a bother. Besides, pistons etc are easily made custom or shipped. Cams reground etc and the FI is just standard bosch stuff.
maybe showing my ignorance here, but wouldn't a lighter engine improve the weight distribution which in turn should improve handling characteristics? Lighter springs/damper settings calculated for the lighter engine would help with any skitishness?
Oddly I can get parts, just finding motors is a bit of a bother. Besides, pistons etc are easily made custom or shipped. Cams reground etc and the FI is just standard bosch stuff.
Where in the US are you? Just checking my local Craigslist today shows 3 164's for sale. One of them claims 44K miles (no price), the others are in the $3K range:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/cto/4801359987.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/4802990351.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/4806774652.html
maybe showing my ignorance here, but wouldn't a lighter engine improve the weight distribution which in turn should improve handling characteristics? Lighter springs/damper settings calculated for the lighter engine would help with any skitishness?
If a heavier engine helped to settle the car, he had his suspension set up incorrectly. I know that tire pressure, bound and rebound as well as springs could all cause the car to feel skittish with a light rear end. I have driven heavy tailed cars, and they can feel quite planted (my 1976 Turbo Carerra was one) when properly sorted, but there is a penalty when they step out.
The Slug
19-12-2014, 23:35
maybe showing my ignorance here, but wouldn't a lighter engine improve the weight distribution which in turn should improve handling characteristics? Lighter springs/damper settings calculated for the lighter engine would help with any skitishness?
If a heavier engine helped to settle the car, he had his suspension set up incorrectly. I know that tire pressure, bound and rebound as well as springs could all cause the car to feel skittish with a light rear end. I have driven heavy tailed cars, and they can feel quite planted (my 1976 Turbo Carerra was one) when properly sorted, but there is a penalty when they step out.
Me, I just take advice from the guys that have the car's, have competed in them for years successfully, covered several thousand miles and appear to know what they are talking about from experience.
I find its something you can't pick up from a book, experience.
Good luck with your engine choice and suspension setup, it will be interesting to see which way go, and how far from what others have done you end up with.
Where in the US are you? Just checking my local Craigslist today shows 3 164's for sale. One of them claims 44K miles (no price), the others are in the $3K range:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/cto/4801359987.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/4802990351.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/4806774652.html
Texas, so shipping is $1200 for a driving car, more for non-running/parts car.
I am not trying to diverge from the normal. Trying to get some information with regard to a couple of motors that are fairly uncommon here in the US.
When do you expect to have the car? Glad to hear you guys worked a deal out. I see alfa 164 for sale pretty regularly on ebay and craigslist. I happened across mine through craigslist. I did end up going all the way to jersey to get it though because I wanted the last of the v6 style available here in the U.S…..little bit harder to find.
The stratos goes onto the enclosed transporter this morning. I should have it later this week.
I have found a place with a 24v motor, but they switched the price on me when I tried to actually buy it, and it comes completely bare (no harness etc.) which means I would be forced to source all of the parts myself, which would be quite a chore and double the cost at least.
I am looking. There is an S(dohc) for sale 450 miles away and a Q(top of the line bigger runners, 24v etc) 1700 miles away.
Since I have plenty to work on for now, I will just keep shopping for something that is really good, really close or really cheap. I hope to find at least 2 of those in the same deal.
I am still talking to a guy about his Ferrari v8. It seems the coolest, but not the best option...
Thanks so much for all the help!
So I have the car. It needs some work on fit and finish, but the mechanicals are better than I had feared. We worked on the brakes and got some pedal back. Did a test drive and the shifter was atrocious (almost as bad as my worn out 914 tail shifter, almost!) We tightened and adjusted as best we could based on appearance and things were much better.
Took it out with brakes and shifting and I think I can live with the 4 cylinder for now. I will not be winning any races, but it is still fun to drive since the weight is so low.
Main concerns now are sorting out a bit an odd electrical web so we don't have multiple fuse panels dangling down on the driver's footwell.
Tach, clock and oil pressure gauges are DOA. Water temp and fuel seem to have a wonky ground (cut in and out).
Occasionally the starter relay refuses to engage, but the car starts robustly when it does. All seem to point to an electrical system that needs TLC.
Everyone is blown away by the new toy and I am having great fun getting to know its ins and outs. Still learning how to get in an out as well. It is possible as bad as my Elise was. I hope to develop a similarly useful strategy for ingress.
Sounds great, nothing like a few teething problems to help you get to know the car. The starter solenoid is a known weak point on the Beta units. I pulled mine apart cleaned the contacts up and flipped the plate over so it had a clean smooth contct surface, then fitted a relay. I was having the same starting trouble, never again for four years after fixing the solenoid.
NoCorseChris
23-12-2014, 10:38
A relay dedicated to the solenoid circuit is a good idea. Starter solenoids tend to take quite a slug of current, and taking that load off the ignition switch & (long) wiring is a smart move. Had similar issues with the Beta engine I first built mine with - pretty embarrassing when you jump in, turn the key and it just goes 'click'. An easy retro-fit is to use the switched 12V for the solenoid to drive the relay coil, feed the relay power via an inline fuse direct from the main starter terminal and job done - you can do it all neatly, close to the starter, without having to hack the loom. The combination of a 30 odd year old Beta igniton switch and an equally old X 1/9 loom needed quite a few extra relays fitting I found.
I had/have fond memories of the Lampredi TC from owning a number of Fiat 124 SPorts as well as Betas, but back when I had a Monte Carlo (Scorpion) I had already decided it was short on grunt. You can certainly feel the difference in weight & balance between TC & V6, but unless you fancy something a bit off the wall like maybe a VAG turbo unit, a decent V6 is the way to go. I still think it would be interesting to try a modern turbo 4 pot in there, but it'll remain a thought experiment as far as I am concerned, my car building days are done unless I win that lottery :(
Given the problem you have in sourcing an Alfa engine over there, how about the Toyota option? Don't know how they are for size, but you have some decent domestic V6 motors too.
A relay dedicated to the solenoid circuit is a good idea. Starter solenoids tend to take quite a slug of current, and taking that load off the ignition switch & (long) wiring is a smart move. Had similar issues with the Beta engine I first built mine with - pretty embarrassing when you jump in, turn the key and it just goes 'click'. An easy retro-fit is to use the switched 12V for the solenoid to drive the relay coil, feed the relay power via an inline fuse direct from the main starter terminal and job done - you can do it all neatly, close to the starter, without having to hack the loom. The combination of a 30 odd year old Beta igniton switch and an equally old X 1/9 loom needed quite a few extra relays fitting I found.
I had/have fond memories of the Lampredi TC from owning a number of Fiat 124 SPorts as well as Betas, but back when I had a Monte Carlo (Scorpion) I had already decided it was short on grunt. You can certainly feel the difference in weight & balance between TC & V6, but unless you fancy something a bit off the wall like maybe a VAG turbo unit, a decent V6 is the way to go. I still think it would be interesting to try a modern turbo 4 pot in there, but it'll remain a thought experiment as far as I am concerned, my car building days are done unless I win that lottery :(
Given the problem you have in sourcing an Alfa engine over there, how about the Toyota option? Don't know how they are for size, but you have some decent domestic V6 motors too.
I think that I have a faulty wire or bad relay inline with the starter solenoid. I don't get a click, I get nothing. Then I try again and it fires right off. As I said, there are a couple of gauges that also work intermittently. I suspect a loose earth(ground) somewhere in the mix. That is never a problem to ignore.
There are actually a couple of engine options that would be quite a bit less money and work better than an Alfa motor. One choice would be to pick up a Toyota 2zz engine with 6 spd box. They are cheap here and if need be can have forced induction added. This was more than enough to make my Elise (us market, not first round) quite a manic drive on the street. It was putting 250 hp to the rear wheels.
I have contacted the local rally organization. I think I will do a few events with them on the twink. If I love the dirt I will make my car into a dirt loving rally machine with the lightweight and robust 6 spd Toyota. If I am not in love, I will likely make it into a street toy with the Alfa motor. I am now discovering a couple of places where I might source a proper Busso (either 12 or 24 valve). I just may need to wait a bit if I don't want to spend a fortune on it. Best news is that I am happy to wait on removing the current 4. It is string enough to make me want to go through the brakes and suspension pretty carefully before I add more power.
NoCorseChris
23-12-2014, 14:52
From your description, it does sound like you've got a few jobs to work through! Nothing too serious though by the sound of it though.
FWIW, go for the 24V option if you can. I stuck with the 12V for mine, and with hindsight, think a 24V would have been the better choice. That said, the early 24V motors can be troublesome with cambelt slip issues. The last ones were by far the best, the 166 & GTA era engines. Still have a 166 and the engine is in superb condition at 110k miles. I reckon if I was using it as a donor, I wouldn't bother opening it up....and for me, that's quite an admission as I have been a serial offender when it comes to gratuitous engine rebuilds!
At least you are in the good position where you can get to know the car and enjoy driving it before committing to an engine swap. When I had mine, I had a bunch of what felt like good reasons to build it with a TC then fit a V6 later on.
Good call on suspension and brakes too.
Keep posting, it's good to see the evolution.
When I get a chance to go to really "work" on it, I will post a bunch. I will start a new thread with my adventures. My first task is going to be to decide how many circuits I need to keep, since I have a Fiat fuse block, a Hawk fuse block and a pair of relays with a switch hanging off of them under my dash.
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