View Full Version : Getting off my arse
Well I think it is time for the final push to finish my car. I've got a few things that need solved, but nothing that seem insurmountable. I purchased a wiper unit fro a Lotus Elise thinking it would be an ideal fit, well it is not, so I need to know what people are using for wiper units on their cars. Remember, I live in the USA and need something that is available here. There is a cars show at the end of July that I am planning to enter the car (actually already have sent in the entry fee). So, I will try to keep everyone up to date with photos.
Corky
Hi Corky,
Attaboy fella, good luck with the final push.
You may already have a bracket welded to the top rail of your front bulkhead. Under the scuttle ?
That should provide you with a mounting for a three bolt wiper motor, Lancia, Alfa or whatever you can get your hands on.
After that you need a wiper spindle which has enough threaded length to go through your bodywork. Probably not such a great length on your LB body. The old Corse body you had might have been 1/2" thick where the spindle penetrates the body.
You can make up a simple linkage to join motor to spindle.
I found out recently that the length of the arm directly fixed to the spindle is the only thing which affects the arc the wiper arm moves through.
I can post you a picture of s typical Corse linkage next time I'm on my PC.
See also a recent thread which described somebody else's experience in fitting a boat/yacht single wiper motor which had an integral spindle.
Hi Corky
See this from a while back (3 years!!) - about 1/2 way down the thread you'll see my Corse/Listerbell installation details using the Alfa 164 motor. Middle photo shows motor/linkage/spindle pretty clearly
http://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/736-Corse-wiper
Regards
Paul
Hi Corky
See this from a while back (3 years!!) - about 1/2 way down the thread you'll see my Corse/Listerbell installation details using the Alfa 164 motor. Middle photo shows motor/linkage/spindle pretty clearly
http://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/736-Corse-wiper
Regards
Paul
Strange Paul, I am part of that post, but don't remember it. I will probably have to see if I can buy a new 164 wiper motor, I think I recycled the one out of the 164 donor car I had.
Here's a picture of what has been made for the Corse in the past.
Photo courtesy of Mick some time ago I recall.
It's made from parts of a 164 linkage. I don't think the dimensions are totally critical but you do need to keep it compact. Depending of course on whether you are using a normal Corse bracket?
As far as I've been able to work out, and it's worked for me, the only dimension which actually affects the arc through which the wiper arm sweeps is the length of the arm on the wiper spindle itself.
If you could make this adjustable by incorporating a rod end then I think you would have all bases covered.
I went through my scrap parts and found the wiper mechanism and wiper motor, but I think I'm missing a needed part of the wiper motor. I also looked at the mounting bracket on the frame and notice that the hole pattern is different then the hole pattern needed, so I'll have to re-drill the correct hole pattern. So, looking at these parts, what parts do I need to keep?
Corky
Hi Corky
You're missing the arm that attaches to the motor shaft (as shown in the photo John posted). You then need a spindle that's threaded so you can clamp it to the fiberglass and attach that to the arm that you're missing - basically everything in John's photo + your motor and you're good. Two approaches you can take:
Find a threaded spindle from something else - if you look at my photos, you'll see the part I used - it came from a Ferrari mondial or 308 via ebay (and not expensive strangely enough)
Or, do what Holytree did and reuse a piece of the Alfa assembly you show in your last photo. It's a nice solution - see the thread I linked earlier - he had a threaded bolt drilled out for the spindle and used 2 nuts to mount it on the scuttle. Here's the piece you'll need from your part:
8381
The spindle is easily removed - there's a circlip on the top (opposite side to your photo) holding it in place
Today I order a lot of parts for the car, so while I'm waiting I decided to see what needs to be done to the finish of the body as it comes from Lister-Bell. The top photo was before I started prepping the finish, the middle photo I just used a first cut polishing compound, the second I first sanded with 1500 grit wet-dry sandpaper, then the first cut compound. That gave me the desired finish to do the whole, then finish that with a finish polish compound.
Oh, and I couldn't find the motor shaft, so now the search begins for that.
Corky
turbonutter
28-05-2015, 00:34
Body Work is looking good :)
If you are going to use the Alfa motor pictured then count how many terminals it has on the motor.
I have notes from the Corse days which identify what each terminal does.
IIRC there are 6 and 7 terminal motors depending on if you have an intermittent wiper setting.
Also have to take switches into consideration.
What column switches are you intending to use?
I guess the other thing to be aware of is that the existing Corse wiper motor bracket is probably set up for right hand drive....
Strat Fan
28-05-2015, 14:11
To the best of my knowledge the Corse wiper bracket has always been on the centreline of the car so it should be universal between both LH and RH drive.
Worth checking tho'.........
and indeed it is. Smack bang above the centre tunnel.
On Frederic's car anyway, who knows on any others......
If you are going to use the Alfa motor pictured then count how many terminals it has on the motor.
I have notes from the Corse days which identify what each terminal does.
IIRC there are 6 and 7 terminal motors depending on if you have an intermittent wiper setting.
Also have to take switches into consideration.
What column switches are you intending to use?
I guess the other thing to be aware of is that the existing Corse wiper motor bracket is probably set up for right hand drive....
I am using a Lancia Beta steering column and switches, basically the same as a FIAT X1/9.
Yes, the mounting bracket is smack dab in the middle of the car.
Ok Corky. If you need any info on the wiring let me know.
Don't forget, count how many terminals are on your Alfa wiper motor.
Ok Corky. If you need any info on the wiring let me know.
Don't forget, count how many terminals are on your Alfa wiper motor.
Will do, parts are suppose to start arriving today, so looks like this weekend will be the start of the final run to finish my car.
Ever wonder what $600 worth of flex brake lines and fittings look like?
Corky (Russell)
If you think that's bad - just wait 'til you get to teflon fuel lines and fittings!!
Looking good though - can't wait to see the car on the road. In fact, I'll be up in your neck of the woods again in July - my daughter accepted a place at Seattle University, so we need to attend an orientation session and will likely be in the area a lot more often going forward
P.S. Just noticed the brand - so was that price with or without the family discount :)
P.S. Just noticed the brand - so was that price with or without the family discount :)
I wish that I got a family discount. LOL
Corky
As suggested by Paul, I found a wiper assembly from a Ferrari 348 and will be using it for my wiper system. Still waiting for one missing part, then I need to drill the correct hole pattern in the wiper motor bracket and start figuring out the wiper timing.
Update, got the driver side (USA) door latch mechanism fitted. Test fitted the door window, then realized that I had the Litton/CAE/Napier Sport window, got out the Lister Bell window and test fitted it (see photos) much better fit. I have all the brake lines and clutch line done, missing one fitting (on order). Fuel lines, filters and pump ordered. A lot of little things need tweaking. Hope to hear it run in about a month.
The window photos in the previous post was the Litton window, below is the Lister Bell window.
Well the brakes are done and not leaking. Working on the fuel system, the photo shows the fuel pump in place, the two panels above the pump are where the filters will be installed. Need to re-install the e-brake and route the cable shifter. Also need to finalize the cooling system routing.
turbonutter
06-07-2015, 23:49
Do you have a pump in the tank as well??
mel lewis
07-07-2015, 20:39
Do you have a pump in the tank as well??
Is that not a filter ?
turbonutter
07-07-2015, 21:09
Is that not a filter ?
No its an injection pump - the filters are on the car floor next to the coolant pipes ready for mounting.
I see just an outlet on the tank & a return or vent & that pump isnt designed to suck, so unless there is a lift pump in the tank, it wont work.....
ChrisCar6
07-07-2015, 21:34
Two filters for a single tank??
Strat Fan
07-07-2015, 21:57
100 micron pre filter, 10 micron post filter?
ChrisCar6
08-07-2015, 00:21
Oh yeah, just remembered I've got three.....:o
No its an injection pump - the filters are on the car floor next to the coolant pipes ready for mounting.
I see just an outlet on the tank & a return or vent & that pump isnt designed to suck, so unless there is a lift pump in the tank, it wont work.....
We'll see.
Aw, come on Corky. There has to be more under that impressive flange on top of the tank than a sender unit and a pick up pipe.
Spill the beans!
Aw, come on Corky. There has to be more under that impressive flange on top of the tank than a sender unit and a pick up pipe.
Spill the beans!
Nope, that's it.
There seems to be some concern about the fuel pump that I am using, so here is a photo that shows you a comparison of the usual in-line fuel injection pump (the white pump) and the much larger a more powerful in-line fuel injection pump (the black one) that I am using.
Got the wiper motor attachment holes re-drilled and wiper motor installed. Craig told me which side to drill the hole for the wiper arm, but that was a while ago. I believe he said to the left (B), but I'm not sure, any other input? This is a LHD car.
Thanks,
Corky
Guy Mayers
08-07-2015, 21:44
Put the wiper on the same side as the driver so you get more of the screen in front of you cleared.
Guy
Strat Fan
08-07-2015, 22:10
Washer jet on the centreline, wiper spindle should be offset approx 2.5" to the drivers side, wiper parks to the passenger side.
As Guy says this maximises the sweep in the drivers favour.
Yes. I'd agree with both Guy and Craig.
When converting RHD to LHD I did not move the wiper spindle over.
That's why I ended up having to rework the linkage to get the extra bit of sweep to make it acceptable on Frederics car.
Do you have any baffling in your fuel tank Corky?
Do you have any baffling in your fuel tank Corky?
Yes, it is almost a fuel cell in design. There is a box around the pickup that has doors that only open in, thus insuring that there will be fuel around the pickup.
NoCorseChris
09-07-2015, 10:37
I think the only concern over the fuel pump is about it's ability to suck the fuel up & over - they tend to suck badly. That said, many moons ago I fitted an EFI engine into our Marcos that had previously had a carb fed setup and did a very similar layout to what you have here - I put the HP pump on top of the fuel tank, no baffles, no swirl and it worked OK. It wasn't the right way to do it by any means, it did suffer surge once the level dropped but it did work most of the time. Later on, I re-worked it to incorporate a lift pump, swirl and proper filtering.
Pump itself looks more than up to the task.
I think the only concern over the fuel pump is about it's ability to suck the fuel up & over - they tend to suck badly. That said, many moons ago I fitted an EFI engine into our Marcos that had previously had a carb fed setup and did a very similar layout to what you have here - I put the HP pump on top of the fuel tank, no baffles, no swirl and it worked OK. It wasn't the right way to do it by any means, it did suffer surge once the level dropped but it did work most of the time. Later on, I re-worked it to incorporate a lift pump, swirl and proper filtering.
Pump itself looks more than up to the task.
I don't know of many tanks that feed from the bottom of the tank, so any fuel pump will have to suck fuel out of a tank. I have used the smaller pump type on several applications before, the trick is to keep it close to the tank so that it pushes the fuel, more then sucks it.
Corky
Update, wiper is in place through the body. I have a wiper arm coming soon. Need to figure out the wiring since I don't have (or can't find) the connector from the wiring harness to the wiper motor. Then I need a 12V power source to test the motor for positioning the wiper mechanism.
turbonutter
11-07-2015, 18:22
I don't know of many tanks that feed from the bottom of the tank, so any fuel pump will have to suck fuel out of a tank. I have used the smaller pump type on several applications before, the trick is to keep it close to the tank so that it pushes the fuel, more then sucks it.
Corky
Here is a quote from the installation instructions for your Aeromotive pump... They say that the pump should be gravity fed..
Aeromotive Quote
""To use this pump in your vehicle’s fuel system, we strongly recommend the following:
A by-pass style fuel pressure regulator must be used in the system.
Gravity feed the pump by mounting it lower than and as close as possible to the fuel tank.
If you are using a stock fuel tank, install a reservoir style sump in the bottom-rear of your fueltank. Exercise extreme caution and follow all manufacturer’s recommendations wheninstalling a reservoir style sump.If you choose not to install a reservoir style sump, then you must install a high flow capacityfuel tank pickup.(Installing a high flow pickup instead of a reservoir style sump mayshorten the fuel pump life and cause driveability problems. Stock fuel tanks have a smallinlet reservoir that is quickly emptied by a high flow fuel system, causing pump starvationand cavitation. When using a pickup, you should maintain at least ½ tank of fuel in thevehicle at all times, to avoid emptying the stock inlet reservoir.)Utilize AN-08 size high pressure fuel lines, fittings and o-rings for all connections from the fuel tank pickup to the fuel rails in the engine compartment. (Call Aeromotive for availability.)""
It it were me I would rethink the plumbing now, before you find out the hard way it dosent work... The pump you have can be mounted inside the tank, and as you have a nice big flange on the top, that would seem to be the way to go.
If you dont want to take my word for it, then email Aeromotive - they are very helpfull & will tell you if your system will work or not..
The pump you have can be mounted inside the tank, and as you have a nice big flange on the top, that would seem to be the way to go.
I don't know about you, but I really can't think about putting anything that might create an electrical spark inside a gas tank. I will contact the manufacturer of the pump.
hollytree
12-07-2015, 07:39
A bit of advice from a Building Services Engineer.
Most pumps require a Net Positive Suction Head NPSH to work correctly. That is to make sure the pump is 'pushing' the fluid rather than pulling it. Try pulling water! There are some special exceptions, but not many.
That is why even if you have a heating system in your house with the pump in the airing cupboard, there will a tank in the roof above it, to keep the pump suction inlet under a positive pressure. This stops the liquid cavitating in the pump which can damage the pump.
If the pump is approx halfway up the side of the tank everything will be fine when the tank is more than half full as the pump inlet will be under positive pressure. Less than half full the pump will be sucking. - Not good.
Would you rather pull or push a dog on a lead!
Steve
mel lewis
12-07-2015, 10:31
Would you rather pull or push a dog on a lead!
Steve
Kick its arse and let it pull you !!!!
mel lewis
12-07-2015, 10:34
No just a joke I dont like cruelty to mans BEST friend.
turbonutter
12-07-2015, 11:33
I don't know about you, but I really can't think about putting anything that might create an electrical spark inside a gas tank. I will contact the manufacturer of the pump.
Most manufacturers put the pumps in the tank, I think that suction assembly you have in your tank would have had a pump in it in the car it came from. The top of my tank is too small, so it wasnt an option for me. Lets see what aeromotive have to say.........
But a second quote from the instructions says this:
Note: Failure to mount the pump lower than and close to the fuel tank may cause the pump to run dry, resulting inextreme pump wear! Make sure the pump is located lower than and as close as possible to the fuel tank, so thatthe pump is always supplied with fuel!
Here is an aeromotive pump installed in tank - Different to yours, but the same principle should work, a nice sock pre filter and you are done...
8545
Neil (aka Turbonutter), I hear what you are saying, but every in-tank fuel pump in any vehicle that I have had that had one, had all electrical connection on the outside of the tank. I've been doing some searching for 'lift' pumps, looks like most of them are for diesels (haven't found one for a gasoline engine yet). So my question is, can I use a lift pump in-line with my pump? By using a lift pump, would I still have to put the in-line pump lower then that tank? Of course you know, this is delaying the completion of my car, LOL. Remember, I am in the USA and any pumps that you might have available in the UK may not be available in the USA, so if you make suggestions, please note the brand name of the pump and I will try to find if it is available here.
Hi Corky
for in tank installation, the pump is sealed so danger of sparks from motor, etc is removed. All in tank installations have external connections as you mention but the wires still go inside to the pump. Just need to make sure proper fuel resistant wire insulation and secure connections.
rather than a lift pump why not just move your pump and mount on the floor? This will give it the continuous head of fuel it needs.
If I was doing it again I'd definitely go the in tank route with an integrated swirl pot. My setup works well but there's a lot of plumbing due to two pumps and swirl pot, which apart from cost is ok and works well but access is very difficult with engine in place - consider this also
best regards
Paul
Paul, if that is all it would take, then I would do that, but everyone seems to be saying that I need to be pulling fuel from an outlet at the bottom of the tank (or I am misunderstanding what they are trying to tell me).
Anyway, I put the engine in to check clearances, good think I did. This is the first time the engine have been in with all the accessories in place. With the pump in the current position, the outlet is right between the alternator and the A/C pump, almost touching. so I will definitely be placing the pump lower in the engine bay. I have some more nut-serts on order, when they get here I will re-locate the pump at or below the bottom of the tank.
My alternator is even closer than that to the rear bulkhead, but as I look at your photos, I'm wondering if you have a single or double skin? Mine is double skinned with fire-retardant insulation in between, but my engine had to be set slightly further forward than normal to resolve a clearance issue with the gearbox due to a slight error on the chassis. Luckily, not much clearance is needed because the Corse engine mounts allow almost no movement.
Also, I'm in Seattle until Wednesday - depending schedules, maybe there's a chance to meet - see PM I sent earlier
Regards
Paul
Strat Fan
13-07-2015, 08:59
In all the fuel injection installations I have ever been involved with we have always mounted the high pressure pump as low as possible (basically level with the bottom of the tank) with the shortest inlet pipe possible & have used the head of fuel to feed the pump. Predominantly the pump used was the Bosch 044 and they pump rather than suck so need the head of fuel to draw from.
In your case Corky I'd look at fitting an in tank pump especially with the way you have configured the top of your fuel tank. I'll email you a picture of a solution.
Alternatively drill a hole down low in the side of the tank, fit a bulkhead fitting & a short alloy pick up pipe to the bottom of the tank & this could allow you to run the external system you have fitted.
As Paul says, a second skin of aluminium on the rear bulkhead with a 1" insulator sandwiched between the skins will help keep the noise & the heat out of the passenger area.
So, just had a visit from Paul, his daughter will be attending a university near me, so he stopped by after their orientation. Got some pointers from him, we discussed the fuel system and I think I will be going the in-tank method. It is always best to get in-person feedback, the discussion flows much easier. I realize that I am not as far along as I thought, so need to press on.
Asked a lot of questions and did a lot of searching for a throttle pedal, but in the end couldn't find anything here in the USA that worked the way I wanted it to, so I went with my first choice, a throttle pedal assembly out of a FIAT X1/9. Might be a little high off the floor because I had to clear the cooling tubes, but I can always add a block under it for my foot to rest on.
Painted the front louver section today. I got a color match at my local paint shop. There is dust on the body, but if you look at the wheel flairs, you can see it is pretty close.
ProtoTipo
20-07-2015, 11:39
Asked a lot of questions and did a lot of searching for a throttle pedal, but in the end couldn't find anything here in the USA that worked the way I wanted it to, so I went with my first choice, a throttle pedal assembly out of a FIAT X1/9. Might be a little high off the floor because I had to clear the cooling tubes, but I can always add a block under it for my foot to rest on.
X1/9 type throttle pedal on an original Stradale:
http://www.stratosec.com/Forum/album.php?albumid=67&attachmentid=4255
Took some pictures of my car this morning, here they are.
Back at it again, since the last time I posted I have permanently installed the center section, so now I can finalize the other body sections and doors installed properly. Latest install is the front inner fenders (if that is the right term) and did a rough trim for clearance. Next is the front rain flaps.
Corky
86758676
Hi Corky
There's supposed to be a wire spring clip retainer for the Ford front brake pads. It's missing on the photos, so just wondering if you have that part? I ask because in my case, what came with the pads was not correct (or not included - I can't remember) and I had a hard time tracking down the correct part due to multiple variants. If you need it, I'll have a spare shortly when I get round to my planned brake upgrades
Splash guards look good - you'll probably need to trim the tops and side to provide a consistent gap for the rubber seal between the top edge and the front clam once you put that in place
Regards
Paul
Hi Corky
There's supposed to be a wire spring clip retainer for the Ford front brake pads. It's missing on the photos, so just wondering if you have that part? I ask because in my case, what came with the pads was not correct (or not included - I can't remember) and I had a hard time tracking down the correct part due to multiple variants. If you need it, I'll have a spare shortly when I get round to my planned brake upgrades
Splash guards look good - you'll probably need to trim the tops and side to provide a consistent gap for the rubber seal between the top edge and the front clam once you put that in place
Regards
Paul
Not sure what spring clip you are talking about, maybe you can show me next time you drop by. Yea, I need to sand down the final area to be removed, it is close, but I need to put s section of the seal in place to see what I need to remove.
Corky
I finished putting on the mud flaps, the left side rubs a lot, the right side just a little.
Corky,
If you haven't done so already, I'd recommend removing the springs from the damper units and moving the wheels from full droop to full bump to check if any other clearance issues. I mention this because in my case I had to remove and 'resculpt' a few areas of the bodywork to ensure clearance (one side more so than the other!).
Also, increasing rear toe-in by shortening the trailing link has the effect of also pulling the wheel forward slightly, so if rear toe is currently off, it may explain why one wheel is closer to the mud-flap than the other
Corky,
If you haven't done so already, I'd recommend removing the springs from the damper units and moving the wheels from full droop to full bump to check if any other clearance issues. I mention this because in my case I had to remove and 'resculpt' a few areas of the bodywork to ensure clearance (one side more so than the other!).
Also, increasing rear toe-in by shortening the trailing link has the effect of also pulling the wheel forward slightly, so if rear toe is currently off, it may explain why one wheel is closer to the mud-flap than the other
Haven't done that yet, but I'm sure that I will have to resculpt the area. Was the left side (US driver side) that you had to do more work to?
Corky
strat24v
31-08-2015, 10:36
Rather than haacking into finished bodywork, would it be easier to modify your wishbones to move the whole corner?
Strat Fan
31-08-2015, 12:01
From the pictures it appears as though there is too much toe out on the rear wheels, don't modify the bodywork until the wheels are positioned correctly!
The reverse "A" arm design of the lower rear wishbone moves the wheel around a lot in the arch as the toe is adjusted, I would spend my time trying to achieve the correct amount of toe (20 minutes toe in!) & combine this with positioning the wheel correctly in the arch at the same time before anything else is considered.
Paul's rear wheels rubbed on the centre tub where the wheel had moved forward to achieve the toe in required, the wheels should be no where near the rear mudflaps when set up correctly.
From the pictures it appears as though there is too much toe out on the rear wheels, don't modify the bodywork until the wheels are positioned correctly!
The reverse "A" arm design of the lower rear wishbone moves the wheel around a lot in the arch as the toe is adjusted, I would spend my time trying to achieve the correct amount of toe (20 minutes toe in!) & combine this with positioning the wheel correctly in the arch at the same time before anything else is considered.
Paul's rear wheels rubbed on the centre tub where the wheel had moved forward to achieve the toe in required, the wheels should be no where near the rear mudflaps when set up correctly.
The car is on jack stands, not sitting on the ground. I don't seem to have a clearance problem in the rear, just the front when turning the wheels lock to lock.
Corky
Craig summarized it more clearly than I did. And just to clarify, by 'rescupting' bodywork, it was the inner flange surfaces that needed a little trimming to deal with rubbing at full bump, nothing on the outside visible surfaces. But definitely get the toe-in adjusted first - it makes a big difference to where the wheel sits in the arch if it's off. Also check that each wheel is the same distance out from the suspension pickup points, and adjust the top and bottom rod ends if necessary to achieve this.
I have not gotten around to setting up the proper alignment, so that might be the next phase.
Corky
What I ended up doing before I put the body on was getting the wheels set up in acceptable positions, at least to my eye. Basically as close as possible toe, camber etc. still all by eye. I also matched adjustments side to side so that if i ended up making changes on one side I was pretty sure of what the other was going to be. On my kit which is all Lister Bell, there were only changes made to the interior wheel well panels to clear the rear tires (15" wide oem style) on full shock.
With all of that being said, now my engine is in the suspension has settled more and things need a final adjustment. I think there is a newer dimension sheet that shows the optimal set up. I saw it posted a few months ago.
What I ended up doing before I put the body on was getting the wheels set up in acceptable positions, at least to my eye. Basically as close as possible toe, camber etc. still all by eye. I also matched adjustments side to side so that if i ended up making changes on one side I was pretty sure of what the other was going to be. On my kit which is all Lister Bell, there were only changes made to the interior wheel well panels to clear the rear tires (15" wide oem style) on full shock.
With all of that being said, now my engine is in the suspension has settled more and things need a final adjustment. I think there is a newer dimension sheet that shows the optimal set up. I saw it posted a few months ago.
Yes, I did the visual close setup also, just haven't done the final, by the numbers, setup. Paul and I have a similar setup, Corse chassis's with Lister-Bell bodies.
Corky
I have decided to go with an in tank fuel pump, but as you can see from the photo, the leads for the pump are a little short. I had a hard time finding the correct in fuel tank wire, but finally located some. They listed their wire to be purchased by the foot with a ten foot minimum, so since I only needed about 3 feet, I ordered the minimum, the other photo is what they sent me. I'd be willing to bet that there is more then ten feet on each spool. Now I am waiting for the gland to put through the plate so that I can pass the wires through it.
Well, I thought I had all the parts to finish the tank. Needed new connectors for the longer wires for the fuel pump and couldn't find them locally so I had to order them on the internet. The round over valve needed a bulkhead fitting like I told the man at the speed shop (who assured me I didn't). So I located the gland for the wires to path through the tank top as well as the location for the rollover valve. In the photo, the black and blue piece is the out flow of the tank, the blue and red piece in the return line, the blue, red and gold piece is the rollover valve, the black piece is the gland for the wiring. So, sometime next week, the rest of the parts should get here and I can put the tank back together.
Corky
Finally got the connectors that I needed, the intank fuel pump is now wired and installed.
Corky
Modified the plug wire ends so that I can use the coil pack I have. Need to figure out a mounting bracket for the coil pack. Thinking about mounting it so it is in the approximate spot where a distributor would be. I spent way too much time trying to find either a wire set that I could use or a coil pack that would work with the plug wires that I had. Now I'm trying to decides which way I want to set up the injection system, paired or sequential. Still a ways from getting the engine running.
Well, I've been having several frustrating days. If I had this to do over again, I would not have purchased the kit that I did. I also wish that there had been full disclosure of exactly what the kit was made up of. The kit was not built as a kit, it was an old chassis, some suspension parts and a bunch other assorted parts that looked like they would be needed for completion of the kit. I am finding that parts are not what they should be, so I'm either having to alter them or fab new parts if I can not source them. There is a LB kit coming to my area, so I will be able to see what a proper kit car looks like when it was build as a unit. I'm sure that I will eventually finish my car, but the frustration of every time I go to do something and things don't fit, or the parts are the wrong ones, or the parts are incomplete or broken, is taking a toll.
Hang in there Corky, and keep us all posted on progress/issues/etc - given the collective experience of the group here who have most likely seen it all at this stage, help is always just an email/forum post away. What used to kill me during my build was I'd encounter a problem, have some kind of (usually complex) solution in mind, and always end up kicking myself when I posted the problem on the forum only to get back an ingenious and always much simpler solution from one of the usual suspects!!
Regardless of how long it takes, completing the car given where you started from will be an accomplishment to be proud of.
Regardless of how long it takes, completing the car given where you started from will be an accomplishment to be proud of. ....................
DITTO... Paul is exactly right keep going Corky, by what you have achieved so far there IS light at the end of your tunnel, my build took 10 years (on and off).........and there are still some kits out there which are the same age as mine (1988) which are not built yet !!..... just keep ticking jobs off the list no matter how small they are and one day you will get to the end of that list.
Phil
Keep at it Corky! It's well worth it in the end.
Don't get disheartened Corky.
Most builds have seen the same kind of problems at some time or another.
For sure things have improved with the arrival of ListerBell.
I realised some years ago that there was a wide gulf between what was acceptable as a "Kit" in the UK and in The States.
Us plucky Brits put up with some less than acceptable quality in kits for years. In the States you have been more used to accepting a kit of parts in a box which you take out, bolt together and drive away.
Am I right?
As you quite rightly say your particular kit was put together from various sources.
To be completely fair about it though, and as I understand the situation from what I was told at the time of it's export ( by you know who....) the kit was never intended to be built as a true Corse, but to be re-engineered using US components, based on the Corse chassis and body. In fact I think it was to be the start of a "US manufacturing initiative" and "this time next year we'll all be millionaires", scenario.
If I remember correctly it wasn't even going to have an Alfa engine.
As recently discussed in another thread there is a great deal of support available here so dip in any time.
I've survived on it for the past few months!
No such thing as a daft question or statement either, I should know I've asked enough!
Darkspeed
20-10-2015, 18:31
It's no consolation to the problems you are encountering but there is always someone worse off than you are ;)
8889
ProtoTipo
21-10-2015, 11:09
It's no consolation to the problems you are encountering but there is always someone worse off than you are ;)
That's the good side Andrew!
Don't get disheartened Corky.
Most builds have seen the same kind of problems at some time or another.
For sure things have improved with the arrival of ListerBell.
I realised some years ago that there was a wide gulf between what was acceptable as a "Kit" in the UK and in The States.
Us plucky Brits put up with some less than acceptable quality in kits for years. In the States you have been more used to accepting a kit of parts in a box which you take out, bolt together and drive away.
Am I right?
As you quite rightly say your particular kit was put together from various sources.
To be completely fair about it though, and as I understand the situation from what I was told at the time of it's export ( by you know who....) the kit was never intended to be built as a true Corse, but to be re-engineered using US components, based on the Corse chassis and body. In fact I think it was to be the start of a "US manufacturing initiative" and "this time next year we'll all be millionaires", scenario.
If I remember correctly it wasn't even going to have an Alfa engine.
As recently discussed in another thread there is a great deal of support available here so dip in any time.
I've survived on it for the past few months!
No such thing as a daft question or statement either, I should know I've asked enough!
John, I'm not sure that you have your details on the kit incorrect. The first owner of the mess (as I'm calling the kit) had the chassis modified to accept 12V Alfa V6. I have seen photos of all the parts that he collected to built the mess and there was nothing there to suggest that he was going to use US components. As far as US kit, they range from getting a bare body with drawings for the frame and a list of possible components, to a kit that one only needs to add an engine and transmission of their choice. What we don't have here is the USA is the kit car industry that you have in the UK. You have a whole industry built around providing parts for kit cars, there is no such industry in the USA. Another thing is that used components from US model cars were not part of the design of a UK kit. One thing to keep in mind is the I am of Scottish ancestry, and stubborn as you can imagine. The kit will be finished. Sorry my venting caused such a stir.
Sorry my venting caused such a stir................... That's what we are here for !
Glad to hear that the kit will be finished..... you stubborn bugger !
These are what started my rant, as you can see, they are both the same side, and in the one with red circles you can see that one of them has broken studs. With all the duplicate parts that the first owner collected, he only collected two headlight mounts, both the same side, but did manage to get a right and left retainer ring. You would not believe the collection of parts (in various condition) from only who knows where and what type of vehicle. So from now on, those parts are going to sit there collecting dust, if I need something, it will be purchased new or at least in very good used condition.
So, I purchase a set of headlight mounting brackets for motorcycles, but they won't work, so I sent out to find replacement parts for the parts that I did have. I found these NOS OEM parts. These should work fine.
Still the work continues, got the headlight doors in place (the right side complete after this photo was taken), also got the side marker light in on the left, need to do the right side next.
Corky
Lancialulu
04-12-2015, 15:53
Shouldnt the headlight rim front be flush the the black headlamp pod front cover?
Shouldnt the headlight rim front be flush the the black headlamp pod front cover?
Yea, you would think so, but this is where they ended up. The black piece lines up with the rest. If I adjust the link so it come up flush, it will not be flush when closed. But this is kind of a mute point for me because I will probably never drive it at night, so I will never need to use the lights.
Hi Corky
With the outer black fiberglass cover/trim ring removed, does the metal mounting ring fit into the recess on the blue housing or it's too big?
Just took a quick look at mine - the housing I used was slightly too large also, so I cut it down and also enlarged the opening in a few discrete places. The surgery is covered by the trim ring, so no big deal. However, I did use a plastic housing so it was easier to cut down to size than your metal one:
9044
9045
9046
9047
an example of the housing style I used: http://www.waxoyl-usa.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=WIPAC
or http://www.7ent.com/products/headlamp-bucket-assembly-plastic-s5400.html
Guy Mayers
05-12-2015, 23:31
Yea, you would think so, but this is where they ended up. The black piece lines up with the rest. If I adjust the link so it come up flush, it will not be flush when closed. But this is kind of a mute point for me because I will probably never drive it at night, so I will never need to use the lights.
Hi Corky, I think Tim meant that the chrome ring is protruding too far through the black surround rather that the surround not fitting flush with the bodywork.
As to getting the the lamp pod to be flush when closed and the trim flush when open there's a straightforward routine to go through.
Step one is to set the adjuster rod to a length such that the pod can open/close without fouling anywhere as the actuating arm rotates on the motor spindle.
Step two is to put the pod flush when closed and nip up the spindle nut.
Step three is to power up the motor to the up position and then cut the power so it sits up.
Step four, wind the adjuster open or closed so that the trim sits flush with the bodywork, counting the number of turns this takes.
Step five, halve this number and wind the adjuster back in the opposite direction.
Step six, slacken the spindle nut, check the pod doesn't foul as the arm rotates around the spindle, then position it so that it's flush with the body and nip up the securing nut.
Step seven, switch the power off so that the pod drops and it should end up parked flush.
If you still have an imbalance repeat the steps above and it'll get there!
Guy
Hi Corky
With the outer black fiberglass cover/trim ring removed, does the metal mounting ring fit into the recess on the blue housing or it's too big?
Paul, it is pretty much flush with the outer edge, but I haven't put a light in or adjusted for proper aiming.
The headlight holding assemblies that I used are the same ones used for a FIAT X1/9, they should be the correct ones, unless the Lister-Bell group uses something different.
Not necessarily the right ones Corky.
X19 items have not been right for a Corse for many years and I don't think Craig would specify them for the LB setup either
I don't actually recall what your setup is.
Corse mechanism or LB? I know you have LB fibreglass housings there.
I would try a plastic bowl like a Mini fitting, even if you have to cut the back off the bowl.
You can use expanding foam around the bowl or rim to get a decent vibration free mount for the bowl inside the fibreglass housing.
You can always sell the X19 items to someone building a Hawk!
Not necessarily the right ones Corky.
X19 items have not been right for a Corse for many years and I don't think Craig would specify them for the LB setup either
I don't actually recall what your setup is.
Corse mechanism or LB? I know you have LB fibreglass housings there.
I would try a plastic bowl like a Mini fitting, even if you have to cut the back off the bowl.
You can use expanding foam around the bowl or rim to get a decent vibration free mount for the bowl inside the fibreglass housing.
You can always sell the X19 items to someone building a Hawk!
The mechanism is all LB. Which Mini are you talking about the UK Mini or the German Mini? Remember, I'm in the USA and old Mini parts may not be as available as they are in the UK.
Corky
Hi Corky
See the links I provided above
or from here: http://www.minimania.com/part/S5400/Universal-Plastic-7-Headlight-Bucket-Assembly--Sprite-Mg-Midget--Mini
same place I got my GP4 style turn indicators
Paul
Yes those are the ones Paul, I thought they should be available in the States.
If there is anything you can't source over there Corky you can always shout up and one of us will buy it here and ship it for you.
Was probably a good move buying the LB mechanism for the headlamps.
Just make sure that when the lamp assembly travels up and down it clears the back of the indicator unit and its wiring.
Guys method of getting the alignment works a treat on the Mazda/Ford motors as it does with the FIAT motors.
Hi Corky
See the links I provided above
or from here: http://www.minimania.com/part/S5400/Universal-Plastic-7-Headlight-Bucket-Assembly--Sprite-Mg-Midget--Mini
same place I got my GP4 style turn indicators
Paul
Thanks Paul, I didn't see your link earlier. How do you adjust the aiming on these, I don't see the adjustors in the link.
But like I said, this is not critical for me since I doubt that I will ever have the lights up except to show people that they work.
Corky
Guys method of getting the alignment works a treat on the Mazda/Ford motors as it does with the FIAT motors.
I believe that Craig uses Mazda lift motors. Craig provided the lift motors with the body kit I bought from him.
Corky
Lancialulu
08-12-2015, 19:42
Thanks Paul, I didn't see your link earlier. How do you adjust the aiming on these, I don't see the adjustors in the link.
But like I said, this is not critical for me since I doubt that I will ever have the lights up except to show people that they work.
Corky In the UK the lights need to point in the right direction for the annual test....whether used or not!
In the UK the lights need to point in the right direction for the annual test....whether used or not!
They need to here in the USA also, which is why I was looking for the adjusters.
Corky
Hi Corky
I agree the pictures didn't show very clearly, but there are adjustments on those headlight buckets I referenced.
Basically, the first thing to do is the process that Guy outlined - this ensures the back of the headlamp housing is flush with the hood when down and also reaches the proper up position - the photo you posted (post #87) looks as if the headlamp pod still needs to come up another bit so that the flat part at the bottom of the trim ring is flush with the hood surface (at the front) - compare your photo with the one I posted - there's no reason for them both not to be the same. It's an iterative back and forth process to get it right - Guy describes the method very well.
Once the up and down positions are good, then you can take care of the headlamp alignment itself. There are 2 screws on the Wipac housing I used that adjust horizontal and vertical alignment of the headlamp. You can see them in the picture below - they are the long screws connecting the metal ring to the plastic base. I did use a slightly different version than this picture shows - the back of the bowl is open, whereas the one below is closed. I needed this for clearance from the motor mechanism, but if you've any issues with that, you can simply cut the back off the bowl.
To be honest, I found the whole thing a bit of a pain to get exactly right, but I had other issues to deal with such as needing to modify Corse brackets and hinges to fit in the LB bodywork along with quite a bit of metal and fiberglass trimming and adjusting. Also I was using 2 left-hand Ford Probe motor assy's rather than a left and right (for some strange reason that's what the manual recommended), which made it even more interesting! None of that has any impact on your setup luckily.
http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server5600/79cdd/products/1998/images/2984/s5400__69888.1293044406.1280.1280.JPG?c=2
I can send you more photos if needed - just let me know
The reason the Corse manual specifies two left hand motors dates back to when the Ford/Mazda motors were a new item to the market. For some reason best known to the manufacturers, the left hand motors had a retail price much cheaper than the right hand ones! When buying new it made more sense to buy two left hands!
These days, with so many MX5's being broken you can buy as many good used pairs as you like so the reason for buying two lefts has gone.
It was perpetuated as another Gooch myth ( so many of those......)
To fit a right hand motor to a left hand bracket is no problem. You either re drill the locating peg hole or cut the peg off all together. Only Corse specific this though.
The reason the Corse manual specifies two left hand motors dates back to when the Ford/Mazda motors were a new item to the market. For some reason best known to the manufacturers, the left hand motors had a retail price much cheaper than the right hand ones! When buying new it made more sense to buy two left hands!
These days, with so many MX5's being broken you can buy as many good used pairs as you like so the reason for buying two lefts has gone.
It was perpetuated as another Gooch myth ( so many of those......)
To fit a right hand motor to a left hand bracket is no problem. You either re drill the locating peg hole or cut the peg off all together. Only Corse specific this though.
Not the problem, I am using LB components. Got an email from Craig today that explains a lot.
Corky
That's good - so what's next on the list I wonder? Would love to hear that engine firing up (hint - hint)
(BTW, the Corse reference I made was more to take the opportunity to point out my own challenges with the headlamps - I knew it wasn't relevant to your setup.
John - it required a lot more surgery than just redrilling a hole in my case because the covered section that the headlamps drop down into is smaller on the LB so I had to cut large sections off the Corse brackets to make them fit)
Well we didn't see that coming at the time Paul, sorry you had to do that.
Corky, I wasn't offering that as an explanation of your problem, just as an aside to explain why Paul had two LH motors on his kit!
Well we didn't see that coming at the time Paul, sorry you had to do that.
Corky, I wasn't offering that as an explanation of your problem, just as an aside to explain why Paul had two LH motors on his kit!
OK, so you hijacked my post, right John. LOL
Paul, the engine start is a ways off, but there really wouldn't be much needed to get it running. Just to see if it runs, not to go for a drive.
Well, got off the couch again and into the shop. Took the front clip off, easier to work on the lighting that way. Found my turn indicators that ordered back in March, and made some brackets for mounting the driving lights. Waiting to connectors for the turn indicators, then I'll start wiring them up. Wish the wiring harness that I have had a better wiring diagram for it. I might have to try a create one myself. I wish that Lionel would have sent the mating connector for those ends that will connect to wiring that was not included with the wiring harnesses provided.
hollytree
31-01-2016, 11:20
Hi
I managed to track down the company that Lionel used to make the looms. I can email the sheets.
NB they did not include a shielded cable for a speedo sensor over a drive shaft coupling so I had to take the loom out after it was in, unpick it, install a new Belden cable and then put it all back together again.
I am not sure what Lionel envisaged for speedo sensing and driving the speedo. There is a unit on the gearbox, but I could never get anything out of it.
Steve
Hi
I managed to track down the company that Lionel used to make the looms. I can email the sheets.
NB they did not include a shielded cable for a speedo sensor over a drive shaft coupling so I had to take the loom out after it was in, unpick it, install a new Belden cable and then put it all back together again.
I am not sure what Lionel envisaged for speedo sensing and driving the speedo. There is a unit on the gearbox, but I could never get anything out of it.
Steve
I have the sheets, that is what I'm talking about, they are atrocious. There are pages that are suppose to be form board diagrams, but the wire bundles looking nothing like the form board pattern. I'm retired now, but I was an electrical engineer at Boeing, I know what these things should look like. A wiring diagram that shows the entire pathway of all circuits would be nice. As for speedo sensing, I'm not sure what he was thinking either. I am using a 6 speed gearbox from an Alfa GTA, and have no idea if there is a sensor on that gearbox. I will probably do a pickup off the front rotors.
strat24v
31-01-2016, 20:48
No sensor on the six speed boxes, well certainly the gta. Signal came from the abs system.
Strat Fan
31-01-2016, 21:00
From my experience of the supplier of the Corse wiring looms I certainly wouldn't recommend him to anyone.
The loom I had was poorly dimensioned and had enough basic errors to cause anyone problems.
As a side note on the speed I do not think it is necessary to run a shielded cable for the speedo if you are using an ecu supplied tacho signal. I have only experienced tacho to speedo interference on cars fitted with old school ignition coil driven tacho signals.
Finally, for the UK Iva the speedo signal needs to be taken from a driven wheel so that it can be checked/calibrated on the rollers at the actual IVA test.
Thanks strat24v, I was pretty sure that there wasn't any speed sensor on the GTA box. Strat Fan, I can believe that, I feel that whoever did the harness that I have, never had a car to verify the harness against. I will probably use it as a starting point and do the basic wiring (light, heater, and such) using it. I have a lot of wiring to do for the stand alone ECU that will take place of the not provided engine harness. Fortunately I don't have to deal with the same type of testing that you do in the UK, but it wouldn't be any different to move the pick up from a front wheel to a rear wheel.
Corky
Hi Corky
I can also vouch for the inadequacies of the Corse harness. Although time consuming, I was able to figure out the diagram well enough to make it work, but did need to modify in a number of areas. One thing to be very careful of is the grounding. I found that the ground returns for a number of circuits were not sufficient - can't remember everything, but one simple example is the rear lighting harness - there were maybe half a dozen connections for the rear lights but only a single thin gauge ground return for all of them. Same with the front lights. I added quite a few additional ground wires, and grounding studs on the chassis also, and daisy chained them all back to the battery so that I wasn't relying solely on conduction through the chassis to complete the circuit (except in the case of the starter due to amount of current). There were also a few 12V supplies that I either ran thicker wires or put in relays.
Looks like it doesn't apply to your gearbox, but I discarded the electronic sensor and ran a mechanical cable from the gearbox to a Fiat speedo instead
Hi Corky
I can also vouch for the inadequacies of the Corse harness. Although time consuming, I was able to figure out the diagram well enough to make it work, but did need to modify in a number of areas. One thing to be very careful of is the grounding. I found that the ground returns for a number of circuits were not sufficient - can't remember everything, but one simple example is the rear lighting harness - there were maybe half a dozen connections for the rear lights but only a single thin gauge ground return for all of them. Same with the front lights. I added quite a few additional ground wires, and grounding studs on the chassis also, and daisy chained them all back to the battery so that I wasn't relying solely on conduction through the chassis to complete the circuit (except in the case of the starter due to amount of current). There were also a few 12V supplies that I either ran thicker wires or put in relays.
Looks like it doesn't apply to your gearbox, but I discarded the electronic sensor and ran a mechanical cable from the gearbox to a Fiat speedo instead
Thanks Paul, I plan on grounding my car like a Corvette, making many grounds all over the car. Daisy chaining is an idea, but on the Vette, the chassis grounds worked well.
Corky
In going over the wiring diagrams I have found out that Lionel didn't ship two harnesses when he sent everything else. the two missing are the ones from the main harness to the front lights. No problem, I can make those, but I wish I had the mating connector to the main harness.
Corky
Hi Corky
You might want to consider changing it rather than trying to find a matching one. I cut it off and changed to a waterproof one instead. In fact, I split the harness into two smaller waterproof connectors - they were also flatter than the Lionel supplied one which makes it easier to get them through the slot on the side panel when you need to remove the front clam
I bought a kit like this and used it in many of the exposed locations:
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/10750/10002/-1?parentProductId=1354645
Regards
Paul
Hi Corky
You might want to consider changing it rather than trying to find a matching one. I cut it off and changed to a waterproof one instead. In fact, I split the harness into two smaller waterproof connectors - they were also flatter than the Lionel supplied one which makes it easier to get them through the slot on the side panel when you need to remove the front clam
I bought a kit like this and used it in many of the exposed locations:
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/10750/10002/-1?parentProductId=1354645
Regards
Paul
Good idea. Thanks
Corky
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