Jenvey throttle bodies on an Alfa V6 24V photos.

[tipo158]

I'm looking for photos of how people have set up their fuel system for an Alfa V6 24V using a Jenvey throttle body set up. I would imagine it is similar to home the fuel injection of the Alfa V6 24V OEM engine.

Thanks,
Corky

[ChrisC]

A couple of shots of mine before the engine went in.


84268427

[ChrisC]

Plumbed in.


8429

[tipo158]

Plumbed in.


8429

Chris, this is what I am looking for, my engine looks like your pre-install photos now, just didn't have a current picture. Would it be possible to get some other photos from different angles? Where is your fuel pump located, is there an inline pressure gauge in the fuel loop? I don't think it really matter, but which side is the fuel in port?

Thanks,
Corky

[ChrisC]

Hi Corky

Sorry the car is away having the engine rebuilt (which is another story!!!) but I have some older shots of the set up so should give you some idea. My car is an early Hawk and I have located the fuel pump on trays in between the two bulkheads, I can drop the trays down from underneath if i need access to the pumps.

Pressure regulator & gauge

8440

Tray

8441

Basic layout of pumps

8442

[Bernard]

Corky

This is my setup
8443

Phil

[ducatiman]

Not 100% Jenvey, my set-up is using Jenvey (AH Motorsport) Intake manifolds with AT Power Throttle bodies.............................

8448

[Sando]

Trumpet Porn

[tipo158]

8442

Your fuel pump is in your passenger area?? That looks like the e-brake handle.

Corky

[Guy Mayers]

Ermm Chris - have you thought this through? Those pipes are running underneath moving parts (handbrake and gear change) and look to be in danger of suffering chafing in an area that you're not going to have access to once the sloping bulkhead is in. I assume that you're planning on fitting that and sealing it permanently just in case there's a high pressure fuel leak?

If the braided hoses have to remain in this area you might want to consider installing an arch over the spine/gear linkage and handbrake rods that could support the pipes on top of it?

(a concerned) Guy

I realise your chassis differs fro mine, the floorpan on mine extends right to the vertical bulkhead but I think yours only goes to the cross member for the sloping bulkhead? If that's the case have you extended the floor where the pumps are mounted to form a closed void space? I can't make it out from the pics but is there a open area on each side of the centre chassis rail there that would allow any leaked fuel to drain or vapour to vent?

[STR_Strat]

More trumpet porn plus one showing where I located the filter and regulator. The first two pictures are after the conversion to Audi R8 COP's.

845284538454

The two rails are effectively in series ideally there would be a "Y" piece after the filter and another after the rails before the return pipe goes into the regulator, this way both rails would be fed at the same time with an equal amount of fuel at a given flow and pressure.

Dave

[Strat Fan]

The 3 common ways I would think are firstly- the one that everyone here seems to be using (rails running in series) with the pump at the inlet to the first rail, a loop between the rails 2 & the regulator at the the end of the second rail which then returns back to the tank. See 8456

The second option would be to pre regulate the rail in much the same way as the Phase 2 Alfa's are plumbed with the pump first, then the regulator & the rails last with a bleed on the opposite end of the rails to allow them to be filled with fuel initially. This I think is the least common on an ITB set up. See 8457

Finally the rails in parallel set up which David mentions where the fuel is pumped to a "Y" piece before the rails which splits the fuel to each rail & the regulator is mounted at the opposite end of the rails as per the below diagram. This I think is the most common set up for a V8 on ITB's but would obviously still work for a V6. See 8455

[STR_Strat]

Thanks for sketching those up Craig it makes it very clear.
Next time I would use option 3, but with a "Y" after the rails so that a single port regulator can be used. There is an option 4 where the two rails are in series but dead end and use a return regulator, this is how the Toyota OEM setup is configured I believe.

Dave

[Strat Fan]

No need for a Y piece after the rails, I'd use something like THIS (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Torques-AN-6-ORB-6-EFI-Adjustable-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator-30-70-PSI-BLACK-GAUGE-/150926794332) where one rail connects to the LH side, the other connects to the RH side, you can fit a gauge (or pressure sender) in the front to monitor things & the return line comes off at the bottom.
All hooked up with PTFE lined hose & Black anodised fittings of course.

[ChrisC]

Ermm Chris - have you thought this through? Those pipes are running underneath moving parts (handbrake and gear change) and look to be in danger of suffering chafing in an area that you're not going to have access to once the sloping bulkhead is in. I assume that you're planning on fitting that and sealing it permanently just in case there's a high pressure fuel leak?

If the braided hoses have to remain in this area you might want to consider installing an arch over the spine/gear linkage and handbrake rods that could support the pipes on top of it?

(a concerned) Guy

I realise your chassis differs fro mine, the floorpan on mine extends right to the vertical bulkhead but I think yours only goes to the cross member for the sloping bulkhead? If that's the case have you extended the floor where the pumps are mounted to form a closed void space? I can't make it out from the pics but is there a open area on each side of the centre chassis rail there that would allow any leaked fuel to drain or vapour to vent?

Guy, this picture was taken when I initially installed the pumps and was very much a trial run and shows the basic setup. My floorpan does indeed only extend to the sloping bulkhead so the pumps sit on trays with a gap of about 50mm either end to allow the fuel to run out if something major goes wrong. The pipework now passes over the top of the gear linkage rod and sits on a metal arch so that contact with any moving parts is avoided. I have also modified my tanks to take a much larger fuel balance pipe between the two to allow for fuel movement.
I have also lined the inner face of the sloping bulkhead with fire resistant material and have installed a extinguisher nozzle connected to my Lifeline Zero 360 system. I also have a dedicated fuel pump kill switch. Hopefully this will offer enough protection if things go horribly wrong.

[Bernard]

I have also modified my tanks to take a much larger fuel balance pipe between the two to allow for fuel movement............

Not so good around long fast bends !... you could well get fuel surge from one side to the other (depending how large the pipes are of course.

Cheers

Phil

[strat24v]

The larger the pipe, the quicker the transfer to starvation. Putting flap valves in can cause a whole raft of other problems. If worried about levels not equalizing while filling up with fuel then fit a bigger vent/balance at the top and fill up slower.

[ChrisC]

Phil, My theory was by using two low pressure pumps working in tandem and plumbed to individual tanks, both feeding a fairly large swirl pot I shouldn't suffer with surge.

[john]

Is it not the case that with a large enough swirl pot you're not going to suffer from surge anyway?
I don't know. I'm just asking.....

[Bernard]

Phil, My theory was by using two low pressure pumps working in tandem and plumbed to individual tanks, both feeding a fairly large swirl pot I shouldn't suffer with surge.
Hi Chris
My concern was fuel starvation but also the transfer of weight from one side of the car to the other therefore unbalancing the car.......... but this does depend on the size of the transfer pipe used..... I remember many years ago seeing one car (can't remember who's) that had something like 1 1/2" dia transfer pipe...... so long corners would have been an issue !
Sounds like you have it sorted
Phil

[Strat Fan]

A dash 10 balance pipe across the bottom with a dash 6 vent pipe at the top should be absolutely fine for levelling the fuel side to side, a dash 12 at the bottom maximum.
There shouldn't be any issue with fuel starvation when running with a swirl pot in the system.

Chris,
With 2 LP pumps feeding the swirl pot I assume you have an adequate return back to the main tanks to avoid any issues at the swirl pot itself?
Does your regulator return feed back to the swirl pot or back to the main tanks?

[ChrisC]

A dash 10 balance pipe across the bottom with a dash 6 vent pipe at the top should be absolutely fine for levelling the fuel side to side, a dash 12 at the bottom maximum.
There shouldn't be any issue with fuel starvation when running with a swirl pot in the system.

Chris,
With 2 LP pumps feeding the swirl pot I assume you have an adequate return back to the main tanks to avoid any issues at the swirl pot itself?
Does your regulator return feed back to the swirl pot or back to the main tanks?

Returns back to the main tanks Craig.

[Guy Mayers]

Balance pipe - my Hawk tanks came with an outlet on the bottom that was the same diameter as the breather pipes in the top of the tank. I resulted in a very embarrassing situation at the MOT station where the fuel was returned to one tank but because the pick up was off a T in the balance pipe it wouldn't flow back to refill one side. Soon resulted in an overflow. oops.

All history now but the balance pipe was replaced with a 15mm OD pipe and, with the Alfa 164 pump in the tank and the return line to the bottom of the swirl poy I've had no fuelling issues since. Ignoring braided line failure due to rotted rubber that you can't see.......

Chris, glad to hear that the photographed installation wasn't the final one. That gave me a sleepless night I think!

Guy

[tipo158]

There is a lot of great information here, thanks for everyone's input, it gives me more confidence setting up the inductions.

Thanks,
Corky

[jasonlycett]

Hi All , just a quick question on this as i will be going down the same route late with my car. Do you need to fit an aftermarket fuel pump as per the diagrams or would the standard 166 pump be sufficient for a mildly tuned (280bhp ish) throttle bodied engine?

I have a Bosch 044 fitted to my Noble and its a horribly noisy thing always buzzing away, so would prefer to not have one of those right behind me if possible!

[Jeff]

This is a subject which has been discussed before. I believe the basic wisdom is that there's absolutely nothing wrong with the standard pump and it's free! It should also simplify a range of other elements in the engine bay so worth going with unless you have specific objectives that it cannot achieve.

[tipo158]

I was wondering, where do you pull a vacuum for the pressure gauge. Normally it would come from the intake, but I don't see anywhere on these throttle bodies to attach a vacuum line.

[strat24v]

Don't think jenvey users have any vac lines connected. My 6 bodies have ports which are connected to a remote vessel, this has take offs for a pressure regulator, brake booster/servo if needed and the idle valve.

[Sando]

I was wondering, where do you pull a vacuum for the pressure gauge. Normally it would come from the intake, but I don't see anywhere on these throttle bodies to attach a vacuum line.

Not quite sure about vacuum for a pressure gauge?
But I drilled and tapped just one inlet runner for the servo (booster) take off. Works just Fine. No issues at all, ( it was always common practice for multi carb set ups back in the day too) it does run through a standard non return valve, but you would be using that wth any servo take off.
If you needed vacuum for anything else, I'm sure it would work just as well, however you would most likely see the pulses on a guage unless you dampened it out. (A piece of threaded rod in the hose may do the trick...Early Turbo boost fooling trick to bleed pressure or vacuum slowly)
Rob

[strat24v]

All bike throttle bodies have vac Lines from each body that are all the same length. All run to a common connection then on in a single line to the fuel pressure regulator. Been as bikes are by far the biggest users of throttle bodies, I figured they'd have done the most r&d so followed that lead.

[tipo158]

Here is a diagram of the Jenvey pressure regulator, as you can see, there is a vacuum port. Sorry, I meant pressure regulator, not gauge.

[LM mic]

To my knowledge this port is never connected to anything when using a separate jenvey throttle bosy and watever specific ECU ( Emerals or any )

[STR_Strat]

I think its up to you whether you use it or not. The fuel map will be written to take account either way, just make sure that you don't alter it after its been mapped. If you don't connect it to vacuum then it should be left open to atmosphere and not blocked off.

Dave

[Sando]

With an aftermarket ECU the mapping will (should) give you the correct mixture at all times so can't see why you would connect the vacuum. That's for sudden throttle openings with a standard ECU to richen the mixture.

You need a constant pressure at the regulator for the Aftermarket ECU to work with.

.....could that be the cause of you bad fuel consumption Dave?????

[Jeff]

You need a constant pressure at the regulator for the Aftermarket ECU to work with.

.....could that be the cause of you bad fuel consumption Dave?????

I did discuss this with the chaps at Emerald (basing fuel pressure either on atmospheric or manifold pressure). I was told that the ECU could work either way (ie mapped for one or the other) but that using manifild pressure as a reference was better.

I have fuel pressure set relative to the manifold, but i wonder if this doesn't add another factor making things unnecessarily more complex.

[tipo158]

I am using a stand-alone ECU, I'll have to pull out the manual and see what it states.

[LM mic]

Many of ECU racing type we used previously where connected only to an electronic sender fit on the plennum when using turbo engines only

[STR_Strat]

.....could that be the cause of you bad fuel consumption Dave?????

No Rob, mine is not connected.
I think the reason not to block it off is to make sure the pressure remains constant, blocking it off would create a sealed vessel so the pressure would vary dependant on temperature.

Dave