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Lancialulu
21-09-2015, 04:58
Just joined having achieved a bucket list purchase of a "Stratos" which I need to bring back to life!

first will be belt change then new ignition lock and fuel pressure check. Then hopefully get her going.

any thoughts on the rather rare 285 40 15's. Would like some Pirellis but am guided to new Michelins TB15 at 295 40 15 - I have Comptmotive alloys which I do not want to change at the moment.

cheers

Tim

Lancialulu
09-10-2015, 09:25
Slowly getting the beast back to life.

Cambelt change, waterpump change, injectors stripped and rebuilt by local expert and tested (4 out of 6 fully gummed up to start with), service alternator as it requires the fuel tank out .....

Now I need some help. The pic is of the rear bank of the 164 V6 3.0 12v. What does the chrome ball vavlve do. I assume it should either be a blanking plug or some sort of cooling system pipe????

Any advice??

turbonutter
09-10-2015, 10:43
Slowly getting the beast back to life.

Cambelt change, waterpump change, injectors stripped and rebuilt by local expert and tested (4 out of 6 fully gummed up to start with), service alternator as it requires the fuel tank out .....

Now I need some help. The pic is of the rear bank of the 164 V6 3.0 12v. What does the chrome ball vavlve do. I assume it should either be a blanking plug or some sort of cooling system pipe????

Any advice??

There is normally a plug in that hole - it is the low point in the block for draining the coolant from that side of the block - there is another in a similar place on the other side..

Lancialulu
09-10-2015, 11:43
Thanks Neil.

obvious really but thanks for pointing this out. I may just leave it as a handy way of draining as I expect to change the coolant a number of times as the engine clears its self of residues. Then I will antifreeze it.

Tim

ps any other Strato'ists in around Colchester Essex way?

Lancialulu
31-10-2015, 12:24
Got the exhaust back from Zirotech.....

Lancialulu
08-11-2015, 17:09
"Shades" runs under her own steam and sounds the Busso business.

However to start it I have to disconnect the AFM then it fire and runs very rich plugging the AFM back in calms things down but is running very lean till it gets some sort of temperature. Thereon it is fine a revs sweetly, popping and banging a bit from high overrun.

It runs up to temperature (bleeding the system was a challenge but getting the last bit of air out of the top hose on the thermostat housing got things moving round). Oil pressure is good.

Any thoughts on the AFM (type 0280202201). It came with the 12v 3l along with the harness and Motronic ECU (type 0261 200 117). The previous owner said when he had the car running some long time ago he had to unplug the AFM to get it to start so it has been a problem since the engine was installed.

The AFM has a 5 wire plug. Does anyone have any info on this particular type of Bosch AFM? Are there any sensors it needs (I have not found out if it has for example a manifold air temperature sensor.....)

Paul Eustace
08-11-2015, 23:44
Hi Tim,
I have just got my Stratos through the IVA/Registration hurdles and I am now on the road! I have a slight set back and have to spend a couple of days playing with fibreglass but I will soon be running again. I am telling you this as I live near Ipswich and would be keen to visit.

I'll PM you when I am back on the road and hopefully I can come and visit.

Good luck getting your motor sorted, Paul

Lancialulu
09-11-2015, 12:02
Paul
I sent you a PM!
Tim

Lancialulu
10-11-2015, 16:30
I think I have narrowed down the reason not starting when cold.

After thinking about it and opening the lid on the AFM no fault found and air temp sensor worked to spec with a hairdryer and multimeter. Car starts with it unplugged as it demands maximum richness on open circuit.

So round the other side and looked at the coolant sensor which I had read is what is used by the M4.1 to decide injector on duration (richening of mix). The sensor was reading as per spec but when I examined the connector the black earth wire had been sheared in two places near the connector. Ah ha found it, so soldered in a new wire and jumped to start the car. No joy. out with the multimeter and it looks like the signal wire is open circuit somewhere as infinite ohms with the ignition on. A job for another day.......

Guy Mayers
10-11-2015, 17:59
One step forward, another back Tim!

Spare ECU in the post today second class, should be there by the weekend.

Guy

Lancialulu
10-11-2015, 18:56
Cheers Guy!

will we see you at NEC?

Guy Mayers
10-11-2015, 19:36
Not this year Tim!

Guy

Lancialulu
15-11-2015, 16:00
I think I have narrowed down the reason not starting when cold.

After thinking about it and opening the lid on the AFM no fault found and air temp sensor worked to spec with a hairdryer and multimeter. Car starts with it unplugged as it demands maximum richness on open circuit.

So round the other side and looked at the coolant sensor which I had read is what is used by the M4.1 to decide injector on duration (richening of mix). The sensor was reading as per spec but when I examined the connector the black earth wire had been sheared in two places near the connector. Ah ha found it, so soldered in a new wire and jumped to start the car. No joy. out with the multimeter and it looks like the signal wire is open circuit somewhere as infinite ohms with the ignition on. A job for another day.......

after a lot of tracing I found the coolant temperature sensor wire open circuit just 5cm from the engine connector. You would not know as the brown pvc insulation was intact. This break was a similar distance as the sheared earth line reported above.

Anyway with everything back together I turned the ignition key and "Shades" fired into life! Yippee....and instant throttle response. :D

Guy Mayers
15-11-2015, 16:24
Great news Tim! Back on the road soon?

Guy

john
15-11-2015, 18:10
Nicely detected! Not easy to find that kind of problem.

Lancialulu
15-11-2015, 18:55
Thanks John. Found some stuff about Motronic 4.1 on the web and it pointed straight there. Does SEC have an online resource for this sort of stuff?

The Slug
15-11-2015, 23:35
Thanks John. Found some stuff about Motronic 4.1 on the web and it pointed straight there. Does SEC have an online resource for this sort of stuff?

NO but I'm happy to make a Tech resource section...

Lancialulu
28-11-2015, 12:24
Of course nearly there with the rebuild of the interior (double bulkhead hiding all the ecu and related relays .... Needed to be fitted so the carpeting and seats could go in), and then found it would not start urgghh. Anyway seemed the fuel pump had given up (found on taking to pieces that it had eaten some of the collaspsed rubber supply pipe which I had already changed - warning to everyone with 20 year old cars these pipes do not last) so ordered a pattern part off ebay, and guess what it is wired in opposite to the Bosch.... Sorted so car starts and water circulates (after bleeding the top hose - for some reason the thermostat bleed does not get enough of the air out of the hose as it runs down the bulkhead). I also finesed the gear change which before was very stiff but now is slick. All electrics work and I have the new tyres to fit once I have polished up the alloy rims. Then an Mot when there is a weather window.

Lancialulu
09-12-2015, 13:35
MOT and no advisories so "Shades" now legal!!

Loving the drive of her and getting used to Transit size holes to leave while going down the road!!!

Proprietorial gratuitous photo of vhb (very happy bunny).

Bernard
09-12-2015, 14:00
mot and no advisories so "shades" now legal!!

Loving the drive of her and getting used to transit size holes to leave while going down the road!!!

Proprietorial gratuitous photo of vhb (very happy bunny).

excellent.... Well done !!.......... Will you be keeping it tucked up when salt appears on the roads ?

Guy Mayers
09-12-2015, 15:03
Great to see it back on the road Tim - I'll tell Gary the news when I see him in the next week or so! I hope he has no regrets about selling it and until the snow arrives, get out there and get used to it! After you've changed the throttle cable.
Guy

Lancialulu
09-12-2015, 15:48
Yes Guy. It is taxed so thats the incentive. The sticky throttle cable is interesting as it gives quite a few unintentional kicks in the back.

more interesting is in the little run out I have just done I found it very twitchy as I approached the legal limit. I did not check the geometry/toe in until I was able to drive it, and it feels as the Americans would say - very loose. I suspect incorrect toe in a major contributor and also tyre pressures.

does anyone want to give me some pointers. It is a Transformer with Spyder chassis and 131 hawk uprated uprights, 15 inch wheels with 215 50 14 TB15 front and 295 40 15 TB15's rear. Currently 24psi all round.

john
09-12-2015, 16:19
No specific Transformer experience, but tyre pressures seem high.
Dropping them calmed Frederics Corse down. A little.....

ChrisCar6
09-12-2015, 17:30
Try 17psi on the fronts.

Lancialulu
09-12-2015, 18:08
Initial rough geometry check shows 3mm toe in and 1.5 neg camber on o/s wheel and .5 neg on nearside. Need to get turn tables to check castor....

Not as out as I had hoped....

Dropped front tyre pressure to 22psi. Is this low enough. Tyres I now see are 55 profile not 50 so a bit higher side wall. New and sticky though.

Also lost a litre of water somewhere in 20 odd miles. Explains why the fan came on as I got home but where has this gone as no leaks and engine ran absolutely fine. Could be the last of the air coming through the system while driving???

ChrisCar6
09-12-2015, 23:05
Still too high on front pressures.
you need lots of castor on the front.

Spartan
10-12-2015, 08:08
I can see that the chalk line (or pyrometer even) technique might not be very useful if there are doubts about geometry/alignment but, besides the seat-of-the-pants method ...

Isn't there a way to calculate correct(ish) tyre pressures using a factor (of manufacturer's stated max pressure to max weight for the specific tyre) applied to the car's actual weight on each corner (or axle weight/2)?

Lancialulu
10-12-2015, 09:42
Still too high on front pressures.
you need lots of castor on the front.Chris is 4 degrees as per Lancia spec enough. I am going to try to assess what I have today.

Bernard
10-12-2015, 10:43
Hi

some of the best money I ever spent was getting ERICS suspension set up by a proper racing outfit....

Would any of these be worth a punt ??

http://www.johndanbyracing.com/race-car-preparation-services/ (http://www.johndanbyracing.com/race-car-preparation-services/)

http://www.mattroachracing.com/

http://www.redlinetuning.co.uk/info2.cfm?info_id=222097

http://www.essexautosport.com/

http://www.markstuartracing.co.uk/services.html

Cheers
Phil

Lancialulu
10-12-2015, 11:01
Thanks Phil

At this stage I would rather like to find out if we are in the right ball park and if not make some adjustment and see if this calms things down. I will want it done as accurately as possible in the final analysis, but who knows the right setting other than factory kpi10 camber -1 castor 4???

ChrisCar6
10-12-2015, 11:14
My settings are:-

Front 4.5 deg caster, 2.0 deg neg camber and 0.5 deg toe-in.
Rear 1.5 deg neg camber and 0.5 deg toe in.

1.5 degree negative camber on the front probably better for a road car. The rear negative camber may be too much for Group IV rear?

Lancialulu
10-12-2015, 12:15
Chris what tyres/sizes do you run?

Strat Fan
10-12-2015, 13:50
A more conventional road set up would be-
Front- 0.5 to 1.0 degrees negative camber, 10 minutes toe in (total).
Rear- 0.5 degrees negative camber, 20 minutes toe in (total),
Tyre pressures- 17 to 21psi front, 21 to 24psi rear.

ProtoTipo
10-12-2015, 16:00
http://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/271-Hawk-Suspension-Settings

Lancialulu
10-12-2015, 17:53
in sorting out n/s camber by adjusting lower transverse arm (has an adjustable inboard rose joint) this has thrown the tracking out.

Two questions.

1. To adjust tracking toe in/out can the steering rack end be turned after loosening the lock nut on the track rod end, or should the track rod end be disconnected and turned in or out? Hawk Herald rack.

2. Adjust castor is the solely by adjusting the bottom leading link (adjustable rose jointed)??

Guy Mayers
10-12-2015, 18:04
Hi Tim, there should be an outer track rod with an adaptor between it and the steering arm with a locknut on it, slacken this off, vice grips on the steering arm and spanner on the adjuster and screw the steering arm in or out as necessary.

Castor is adjusted on the leading link by lengthening or shortening in. I wound as much on as I could get but you have to watch that this doesn't drag the wheel so far forward in the arch that it fouls on the bodywork. The only caveat really is the inner mount on the lower wishbone, if it's rubber it's going to be under a little more strain and won't last forever. If it's rose jointed then no issues!

Craig has mentioned tyre pressures, i run towards the lower end with 225*50*15 on the front, back end has no camber with 345*35*15s.

Guy

ChrisCar6
10-12-2015, 21:29
Chris what tyres/sizes do you run?
205/50 15" front, 215/45 15" rear.
I would go with Craig's advice, not mine!

Ken Tomblin
10-12-2015, 22:55
hi Tim
Always set your ground clearance first before setting up your suspension, as it will change the castor settings if done later and keep the front end lower than the rear to keep the under car air pressure negative as it flows from front to the rear of the car
ken

Lancialulu
14-12-2015, 14:42
Ground clearance 16cm front 16.9cm rear. Camber -1 front, 0 rear. Working on castor as it was 4 degrees initially. Think I will up this to 5.

Tyre pressures 18psi front 22 rear.

john
14-12-2015, 17:13
Got to be moving in the right direction there. Pardon the pun....
Maybe a tad more rake on the chassis. Another cm or so. Does that affect your camber too much?
Looking for some fine weather to try it out?

Lancialulu
14-12-2015, 17:37
Got to be moving in the right direction there. Pardon the pun....
Maybe a tad more rake on the chassis. Another cm or so. Does that affect your camber too much?
Looking for some fine weather to try it out?I can crank it up at the back to get more rake, but as you say I want to see what this base line feels like first. Probably will be able to get out on Thursday or Friday if the roads are dry and I have sorted the sticky throttle cable. I can reduce the camber but its a pain unbolting the bottom rose joint.....

Lancialulu
16-12-2015, 15:12
When checking toe in/out at rear what are the best reference points on a Transformer? The longitudinal chassis side rails??

strat24v
16-12-2015, 18:14
id suggest putting a string line down the centre, front to back to get an accurate datum then check that to the longitudinal rails.

Lancialulu
16-12-2015, 18:21
How do I know where the centre is??

Guy Mayers
16-12-2015, 18:48
Run a string between the rear wishbone inner mounts, marking the same position on each side, the spacer washers are suitable, remove the string, fold in half to find the midpoint and mark that, put it back on the car checking the outer marks match where you started. Then repeat at the front. This allows you to run a third string front to back that will determine the centre line of the chassis from which you can take measurements.

Guy

Lancialulu
17-12-2015, 16:35
So a bit of an update.

Using the parallel tub and straight edge of the rear wheel and some school boy trig I found OSR had 1 deg toe in and the NSR (in the photo!!) had zero!

So a bit of a fiddle on the nice adjustable trailing arms I got c0.4 degree toe in one both rear wheels.

Set the tyre pressure to 18 front 22 rear ground clearance front of tub (which is essentially a flat plate) 160mm, rear of tub 169mm so not pointing up!

Went for my 20 mile check run and the rear felt really planted, but am still not getting a stable front end at speed in a straight line. Steering and cornering so far feel fine but not exploring that. It needs constant input on the steering at ehem speeds in a straight line (like it is tram-lining all the time), not as bad as previously, so more toe in or less, and more caster (I am near the limit of the geometry already at around 5 degrees). I did not notice any bump steer problems.

Any chassis experts out there??

Strat Fan
17-12-2015, 17:31
If I read your post correctly then 0.4 degrees per side is too much toe in IMHO, as stated in an earlier post rear toe wants to be in the region of 20 minutes total (10 minutes-1/6th of a degree per side)
The front of the chassis I would suggest to be 20 to 25mm lower than the rear of the chassis, normally measured at the front of the floorpan to the rearmost cross member.
I think you will always get some tramlining as the rear track of a GP4 is wider than the front track so the rear wheels will always follow a different section of the road. the wider the rear tyre the more I think it will show itself, I see you have the 295 TB15's though which shouldn't be too bad.
Constant movement of the steering wheel can be either bump steer or rear end tramlining, if you are happy that you have no bump steer then I would think that you are correct in the assumption that the rear is causing the issue.
Where are you with negative camber now?

strat24v
17-12-2015, 17:41
do you have any play in your front suspension ball joints and track rod ends?

Lancialulu
17-12-2015, 18:01
Craig

Castor is set to 5 degrees at the front.
Camber is 1.1 degree neg front both sides, and 0.5 degree neg. - at the rear having said that after the run the rear nearside in only 0.2 neg (yes I did keep rolling the car back and forth to settle the suspension while adjusting).
So I need to go back and check this. I can also dial out the rear toe in quite easily but I note the original had a Toe out!!!! (of 2mm - which equates to 1.6 degrees toe out per side....)

The "tram-lining" feeling seems more front driven than rear but early days. Would a slightly higher tyre pressure make this worse or better??

The Transformer build manual said ground clearance 130mm but this was for 14 inch (and 205 70 tyres?) so with 15 inch wheel this will be higher, and the original Strato's had a ground clearance of 170mm at the rear of the floor plan. I dont feel it as aero lift problem but will ponder this.

Any pointers as I need to "sign Shades off" so I can get on with some other winter tasks. I hope for a few more test days in coming days to enable this.

Lancialulu
17-12-2015, 18:04
do you have any play in your front suspension ball joints and track rod ends?

Absolutely none. They are less than 5k miles old and were jiggled comprehensively by my MOT guy last week. Apart from the bottom suspension joint and track rod ends it is mostly rose jointed and quite quiet....But that would be a good place to look if the car had miles on it. There is no play in the steering either.

Ken Tomblin
18-12-2015, 10:14
Rear camber on group 4 tyres i run 0 deg due to width of tyre, one thing to check on the front end does the steering rack have any tight spots when jacked up with the weight of the wheels. On my Hawk the steering rack platforms had distorted due to welding and was putting a bow effect on the rack body when the clamps were tightend, I over came this by maching the inside of the clamps to a width of 3mm

Regards Ken

Strat Fan
18-12-2015, 13:35
Even with a 345 tyre I would still run with 0.5 degrees of negative. There is so little camber gain on the strut type suspension that as soon as the car rolls in a corner then the wheel will go positive so any negative you can introduce statically IMHO is an advantage. Clearly you would also not run with 1.5 degrees of negative on the road.

john
18-12-2015, 14:44
Unless you had to because some jerk ordered the wrong struts of course.......

Strat Fan
18-12-2015, 16:43
Unless you had to because some jerk ordered the wrong struts of course.......
Thread Hijack!!
& Paul used to speak so highly of you!!!!

john
18-12-2015, 18:54
Hee hee,, well I'll butt into anyone's conversation. Somebody used to speak highly of me? Oh, that Paul... Now I know you're kidding!

Lancialulu
20-12-2015, 14:26
Update and back to chassis tweaking. Just went out again for another bit of excitement. Car is rock steady at speed but very sensitive to steering input with minimal self centering. I tried going up to 20 psi on the fronts which gave a v small improvement in self centering but not much off line. Under dynamic steering it feels great / just fine etc etc.

I have not stiction in the the steering and no wear. I also have upgraded rose jointed 131 uprights so dont think that geometery is at fault. I am coming round to the fact I am running Michelin race tyres TB15 215's on the front that have a very flat and sticky profile so will follow were they are point more than an ordinary tyre.

strat24v
20-12-2015, 14:37
131? They should be 132 items.

What's your bump steer like?

Do you have a split alloy column bearing fitted?

Lancialulu
20-12-2015, 17:50
Typo yes 132! Bump steer how does one check this on the road? I hit a few bumps both cornering and straight at c70mph and the car was quite well behaved.

re column bearing are you referring to the top of the steering column?

strat24v
20-12-2015, 17:58
Bump steer is something that you need to reduce or eradicate while setting up your suspension. It's probably more important to fix than any other part of your chassis setup. If you have the hawk build manual, there is a section in there in how to fix it, if not I'm sure someone on here can give you a link to it.
The split alloy bearing is fitted on the intermediate steering shaft. Owners generally replace them with a proper bearing of some kind.

Lancialulu
20-12-2015, 18:09
I have the build manual and have read this up.

What are the symptoms of bump steer?? as all I am trying to dial out is the straight ahead sensitivity at the mo. Car was built by the legendary Bob Pilot rip so with all the shimming evident I think it is fair to say I will not touch yet.....

Lancialulu
20-12-2015, 18:11
The split alloy bearing is fitted on the intermediate steering shaft. Owners generally replace them with a proper bearing of some kind.

anyone shed any light on this upgrade?

strat24v
20-12-2015, 18:12
Unpleasant straight ahead.

Guy Mayers
20-12-2015, 18:26
The split alloy bearing is just two halves of a block with a semicircle cut out such that it clamps around the intermediate column and is bolted to the chassis. Sometimes it's a little tight and just grips the shaft and restricts it's ability to rotate. There are two alternatives that I've seen. First involves splitting the intermediate shaft and sliding a standard bearing over the shaft before re-welding the UJ back on. After that's done you need to make a suitable bearing carrier and support. The alternative involves splitting the shaft and fitting a Rose Joint and re-welding the UJ. This is the simpler solutions the threaded Rose Joint gives you a lot more adjustment height wise and almost as little restriction as a full bearing. Unfortunately RHD cars can't do away with the intermediate and adaptor shafts as the column routing falls between the brake & accelerator so it has to stay high to avoid feet fouling it. LHD cars can have a lower column route as the shaft passes between the brake and clutch pedals.

If you can measure your intermediate shaft length between the two UJ's I'll compare it to a spare I have here that has a bearing fitted already if you decide you want to try that mod.

Guy

Lancialulu
20-12-2015, 18:41
Car steers straight with no hands, just sensitive to hands!! Ie no Ackerman effect.....

Lancialulu
20-12-2015, 18:45
Guy I have just checked and have the split alloy bearing but it is fine and not providing any issues so I think I will pass on any work here.

Guy, what were your car's symptoms before you decided to wind on a lot of castor? Do you now have good self centering, or just a little bit or none at all? Did you find you had a bump steer issue with so much castor? I assume by the name, bump steer means the steering is affected by bumps??

Guy Mayers
20-12-2015, 19:26
Hi Tim, the first thing I did when setting up the car was wind on as much castor angle as I could get away with. The tyres just clear the bodywork on full lock/compression/droop. The first time I drove the car there was some self centering which improved as the mileage grew. (I'm back to some now with the new LHD rack but expect it to ease as the rack beds in). The first time I drove it the bump steer was terrible. I got as far as the MOT station and back. At which point I stripped the shocks off and set the rack height to eliminate the bump steer. Easy enough to do but time consuming. And essential if you want to be able to relax, relatively speaking, behind the wheel.
The symptoms of bump steer are finding the the car darts to one side if you hit a pothole or a bump in the road. It can be quite violent and you'll know if you;ve got a problem with it already! I'd be amazed if it hadn't been dialled out at build or by Gary during use.
Guy

strat24v
20-12-2015, 19:27
Going in the garage and twiddling the steering wheel and reporting no issue isn't really a way to solve you're issue. Rather than listening to tales of other people's wonderouss car building skills, I'd be inclined to forget them, go back to basics and eliminate all issues others besides myself have mentioned. I have only seen two professionally built models in all my time that I'd consider good enough not to have to strip and start again.

Lancialulu
20-12-2015, 23:04
Guy thanks for this. I need to do more miles but today showed very good stability, even over bumps. Maybe the twitchy feel compared to my other Lancias goes with the territory. I am looking again at the front end and am measuring everything. This is a well put together car and nicely developed by Gary that I am proud to continue its refinement.

thanks to other contributors too as all experience welcome to add to the theory.

Spartan
21-12-2015, 11:35
Slightly off-topic but there is a nice description of bump steer and how to try to dial it out in "Project Binky" episode 10 (https://youtu.be/X3DTTL9xRQ0) (around 23 mins onwards) and continued in episode 11 (https://youtu.be/ob-FUF0Sh_E), where they also go into some detail about "Ackerman" - I see that you mentioned this above so maybe you are already aware. If not - be warned! - and be prepared to invest 5-6 hours of your life watching all the episodes (addictive viewing I find).

Lancialulu
01-01-2016, 14:48
Change of header title!!!

Just finally got Shades off Castor / tracking gauges and out for a test run

Transformed!

2mm Toe in Front
0.2 degree Toe in each side rear
4.5deg Castor front
-1.1 camber front each side
-0.4 camber rear each side
Ride height 15mm higher rear to back
Front tyre pressure 20psi
Rear 22psi

Steering slightly heavy at parking speeds but lightens up and has the twitchyness at speed has gone. Roads are too greasy to explore handling at any limits but I have a big grim on my face as IT IS SORTED!!! AND I love driving it!!!!

This is just a base line and in due course I will put it on laser rig to check my measurements done mostly with digital protractor set up.

I think the biggest contributor to getting to this point was to increase the castor on the o/sf which was a shade over 1.5 degrees before adjustment. I have yet to find any bump steer issues so conclude this was properly set up by my predecessors.

strat24v
01-01-2016, 14:56
Its mentioned on here that having a proffesional outfit do a proper alignment, setup and spring rates is the best way. Good you have it sorted now.

Lancialulu
12-04-2016, 15:26
Further transformed after a professional setup today.

Used a firm in Colchester that specialise in track hardware - mostly drifting.

The biggest change is in tyre pressure up to 28 front 30 rear from 22 all round. Castor wound back to 4 degrees, 1.5 deg camber on front, .7 on rear, and parallel toe rear and 2 deg toe out front.

Was a bit mystified until I drove it and found it delightful (not a delightful handful). We will have to see. The overall comment was nothing much is going to remove the twitchiness until I source different tyres as the super soft TB15's will always tramline due to their stickiness......

So I gave him the task of finding a set of matching tyres (there aren't any other than the Pirelli equivalents are there??)....

Sando
12-04-2016, 18:17
[QUOTE=Lancialulu;29755

Used a firm in Colchester that specialise in track hardware - mostly drifting.
The biggest change is in tyre pressure up to 28 front 30 rear from 22 all round. Castor wound back to 4 degrees, 1.5 deg camber on front, .7 on rear, and parallel toe rear and 2 deg toe out front.
.[/QUOTE]


hope you've got good insurance.......

Guy Mayers
12-04-2016, 18:56
Tim, those tyre pressures sound way too high to me. Keep an eye out for uneven tread wear, especially in the centre sections! How does the steering self centering feel?

They're not trying to get you out there drifting are they?

Lancialulu
12-04-2016, 19:49
Tim, those tyre pressures sound way too high to me. Keep an eye out for uneven tread wear, especially in the centre sections! How does the steering self centering feel?

They're not trying to get you out there drifting are they? Guy I was surprised too but after a long discussion I thought it could be worth a try. If they get work then they will heat up and pressure will go up but on the road they will not get this work as evidenced on my return the fronts were stone cold. I have to say the ride and steering feel was better.... No I am going drifting either.... If the tyres heat up then drop some pressure...., but the self-centering is compromised by the wider than spec super sticky "race" tyre. I will look out for uneven wear though as there isnt much tread to play with to begin with! Shame Friday looks quite wet as it is my travelling day to Goodwood and I doubt I will go in Shades after my boating experience this morning!

BTW what is the mph / 1000 suppose to be for a 164 12v fifth gear re tyre diametre as is seemed high c 27mph/1000?

Guy Mayers
12-04-2016, 20:44
BTW what is the mph / 1000 suppose to be for a 164 12v fifth gear re tyre diametre as is seemed high c 27mph/1000?

Can't help with that Tim but suggest you try it with a Sat Nav that shows your speed? It'll give you a good idea how accurate it is. I've just had my speedo recalibrate by Speedy Cables as it was reading a tad too fast (approx 4 times I think!) but now it's spot on to the Satellite Speedo I bought to keep the "right" side of the law.

Guy

Lancialulu
12-04-2016, 22:32
Hi Guy

Speedo already checked and surprisingly accurate! Not sure about the rev counter though which is why I asked?

Any idea of final drive ration in a std 12v box and 5 ratio (is it 1:1 or an "overdrive"?)? I can work out from first principles then...

Guy Mayers
12-04-2016, 22:52
Been a long day Tim..... Sorry, I don't know what the final drive ratio for a 12v box is.. The info must be out there on the inter web somewhere?

Guy

turbonutter
13-04-2016, 08:49
Hi Guy

Speedo already checked and surprisingly accurate! Not sure about the rev counter though which is why I asked?

Any idea of final drive ration in a std 12v box and 5 ratio (is it 1:1 or an "overdrive"?)? I can work out from first principles then...

from the old forum

9444

Lancialulu
13-04-2016, 10:58
Brilliant. I calculated 20mph/1000 in 4th while on the move so that is spot on. Will do a more exhaustive test in coming days....

Strat Fan
13-04-2016, 14:15
Used a firm in Colchester that specialise in track hardware - mostly drifting.

The biggest change is in tyre pressure up to 28 front 30 rear from 22 all round. Castor wound back to 4 degrees, 1.5 deg camber on front, .7 on rear, and parallel toe rear and 2 deg toe out front.

Was a bit mystified until I drove it and found it delightful (not a delightful handful). We will have to see. The overall comment was nothing much is going to remove the twitchiness until I source different tyres as the super soft TB15's will always tramline due to their stickiness......



Sounds like the perfect settings for a drift car.....
The proof will be in the driving but be very careful, I've worked on a number of high performance mid engine cars & your settings contradict what those companies used.
295 section TB15's are the tyre I'd fit to the back of the 15" wheeled GP4 Strato's replica, the stickiness of the tyre I think is irrelevant to the twitchyness.

strat24v
13-04-2016, 19:27
Craig, how's about asking Mr Comas what his tarmac settings are?

Lancialulu
13-04-2016, 20:29
Craig

its the sticky 235 TB15's on the front that make it twitchy not the rears... Can you recommend a standard compund 15 gp4 tyre front and back. Noted I trye to drive carefully. It is early days but I am persauded to live with this until alternative tyres can be found at which point I will set the front differently.

Tim

Strat Fan
13-04-2016, 21:59
Michelin TB15 215/55/15's have a nice big compliant side wall which shouldn't cause any issues. At the temperatures you are running on the road then I doubt the tyres can really be classed as sticky. Guy runs a wider squarer front tyre which should yield more issues than yours.
Have you actually taken the time to remove the damper & check the bump steer? You have mentioned a number of times that you have altered the front castor. Are you aware that each time you alter the castor you should then double check the bump steer as castor adjustment alters the relationship between the steering arm & the steering rack which in turn provokes bump steer. About 4 pages ago we covered the subject of twitchyness & the subject of bump steer was raised. If you are now happy with your ride height, toe settings & tyre pressures then can I suggest you actually check the bump steer before buying new tyres to replace the ones that plenty of others here run with out issue.

Strat Fan
13-04-2016, 22:13
Craig, how's about asking Mr Comas what his tarmac settings are?

I'm sure Mr Comas has better things to worry about than me calling him up to ask what his suspension settings are!!
As we have covered earlier in the thread a car which is set up for competition or drifting will often have more aggressive settings such as toe out which help to promote turn in (track car/rally car/drift car) &/or instability (rally car/drift car) in the interests of ultimate times or visual flamboyance. A road based Strato's replica should be set up for performance & handling but with a concession for compliance & safety, ie stability under braking & predictability when cornering.

BR

gtmpaul
13-04-2016, 22:44
Can I just chip in on this one,
What Craig is saying on castor is what I have found during my rebuild.
When the front suspension was put back together without springs, it gave me an chance to check the bump steer through the full stroke of the damper, I checked the bump steer and as you start putting on more caster the toe in to toe out change was huge.
At the moment I have reduced the caster and raised the rack on shims.

Paul

Lancialulu
13-04-2016, 22:49
Michelin TB15 215/55/15 (tel:215/55/15)'s have a nice big compliant side wall which shouldn't cause any issues. At the temperatures you are running on the road then I doubt the tyres can really be classed as sticky. Guy runs a wider squarer front tyre which should yield more issues than yours.
Have you actually taken the time to remove the damper & check the bump steer? You have mentioned a number of times that you have altered the front castor. Are you aware that each time you alter the castor you should then double check the bump steer as castor adjustment alters the relationship between the steering arm & the steering rack which in turn provokes bump steer. About 4 pages ago we covered the subject of twitchyness & the subject of bump steer was raised. If you are now happy with your ride height, toe settings & tyre pressures then can I suggest you actually check the bump steer before buying new tyres to replace the ones that plenty of others here run with out issue.

Craig

The old hands at GBH Motorsport (and incidentally Longstone) classed these tb15s as sticky and Bob at GBH road tested the car and said the twitchiness was down to the profile and compound of the front tyre which I beleive is correct. For avoidance of doubt the twitchiness is felt on a notmally smooth tarmac no bumps. I have driven the car puposefully over uneven road surfaces and apart from tram lining there is no apparrant bump steer. I still wish I could find normal compound tyres to fit.....

Tim

Ps in case you were wwondering GBH stands for Geoff Bob and Herindoors....

Sando
14-04-2016, 08:06
Can I have your TB's?

Bernard
14-04-2016, 08:50
I have run TB15's and TB5's in competition (front 205-215/40x15 and rear 295-335/35x15) and can say that there is NO "twitchiness" whatsoever.......... TB 15's are great in the wet giving excellent grip.... however during a dry 20minute race the tread did rip off in lumps (this was my mistake only having a set of wets available to me at the time)
For short dry stages they were great, giving good grip off the line and not getting too hot and ripping tread off during a 8 mile tarmac stage..... IMHO great tyres

9446
9447

Bernard
14-04-2016, 09:02
PS.... the tyre pressure were nothing like as high as some earlier figures

Sando
14-04-2016, 09:10
I like this one

Sando
14-04-2016, 09:11
.....but I like this one better.....

strat24v
14-04-2016, 09:37
IL add to this and say what others are thinking, your set up company hasn't got a clue what they are doing. Just because someone has got some laser alignment kit doesn't automatically mean they know how to use it.
The old guard here know what they are talking about, they have all found what works, over hundreds of thousands of miles between them, which when you check, is very similar to what was run back in the day. I'd suggest your issues are down to the standard of build and lack of knowledge rather than everyone else being wrong.

john
14-04-2016, 09:42
As a general observation I don't believe the Stratos actually works the front tyres hard enough to get enough heat into them to make "sticky" tyres work unless some very specific work is done to make it happen.

Lancialulu
14-04-2016, 09:50
Let me rephrase. The car is really a delight to drive turns in well powers out of corners with no drama even in bumping conditions. The twitchiness I am refering to is the almost lack of self centering. I am not going to dipute others experiences but I dont like the tone of this conversation so this will be my last post on this matter. And no the TBs are not going anywhere.....

strat24v
14-04-2016, 10:17
I'd say you have issues with steering stiction.

ProtoTipo
14-04-2016, 11:45
The 215 x 15 Michelin TB15 is the cream of the crop for the front end of a Stratos rep.
The new P7 Corsa might be on a par, but I doubt it's any better.

A Hawk needs to have the correct offset on the front wheels.
That, and any 'give' in the front tie bar (tension strut) bushes can make a Hawk dart about on the road.
So much so that it will be an awful thing to drive.

john
14-04-2016, 12:15
The 215 x 15 Michelin TB15 is the cream of the crop for the front end of a Stratos rep.
The new P7 Corsa might be on a par, but I doubt it's any better.

Yes, maybe, but only if you cannot live without 15" wheels. There is a trade off between appearance and practical handling.

ProtoTipo
14-04-2016, 13:00
Yes, maybe, but only if you cannot live without 15" wheels. There is a trade off between appearance and practical handling.

That's why I hate Ferrari Dinos or 308s fitted with 16" rims and lower profile tyres.
It makes (handling) sense to ditch the 70 series rubber, but if you wanted something more modern?....

ProtoTipo
14-04-2016, 13:45
Yes, maybe, but only if you cannot live without 15" wheels. There is a trade off between appearance and practical handling.

This, for example, will be an arrestable offence when I come to power::rolleyes:
http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2006/6/2006060913308322754.gif

Darkspeed
14-04-2016, 14:00
Reducing Caster will reduce self centering action further - Irun 5.5 positive on all my cars.
Bump steer has little to actually do with going over bumps. - The sensation is a lack of front end stability when the suspension is compressing with undulations as the suspension is loading and unloading in normal driving conditions. (apologies if teaching granny)

Everything done to your car by the "experts" you took it to for setting up is contrary to the established norms and experience of setting up any mid engine car, or any car for that matter not just a Stratos. The settings you have advised us of are a concern to anyone who has driven a mid engine quickly.
I would be very concerned about the lack of rear toe if corning in the wet especially coupled with the front toe out and what sounds like uncorrected bump steer.

Everything is comparative and a TB15 could well be termed "sticky" when stood against a Yokohama A539 - but compared to an Avon ZZR soft they would not be.

The "Tone" you refer to (looks like a bit of lightheartedness to me but maybe I am a bit more thick skinned) is because you are apparently choosing ignore a great deal of experience and people are genuinely concerned for yours and others safety driving with those settings. I certainly would not fancy my chances of making it round a bend if going quickly and finding water on the surface half way round - then again what's quick to one is downright dangerous to another and you may not drive the car in a manner that the settings you have would be an issue.

strat24v
14-04-2016, 15:39
Many things to check and consider. Are the front uprights fiat 132 or another similar fiat? Are both uprights straight or is one out of true?good idea to check kpi? No mention of front and rear ride heights.

Guy Mayers
14-04-2016, 17:26
Plus one for me Tim, we're not having a go at you for taking your car where you did, just concerned that the set up they have given you appears contrary to what everyone else has arrived at through years of experience. If it works for you we'll all be happy for you but please be careful learning the limits of a car you've recently acquired.

Keep in touch!

Guy



The "Tone" you refer to (looks like a bit of lightheartedness to me but maybe I am a bit more thick skinned) is because you are apparently choosing ignore a great deal of experience and people are genuinely concerned for yours and others safety driving with those settings. I certainly would not fancy my chances of making it round a bend if going quickly and finding water on the surface half way round - then again what's quick to one is downright dangerous to another and you may not drive the car in a manner that the settings you have would be an issue.

ProtoTipo
14-04-2016, 17:30
The twitchiness I am refering to is the almost lack of self centering.

I'm guessing Tim, that you probably have'nt got much of a problem.
A drive in another Hawk, might throw some light on this?

Lancialulu
14-04-2016, 18:19
Chris Guy all

Not going into my shell and I respect all the advice given but this matter is in abeyance until more air time achieved. Was potentially looking to take it to Goodwood for the club track day on Saturday, but a) as I share this driving treat with the other half it is not fair as she has not driven it yet. Been a passenger and loved it though; and b) the travel down day tomorrow looks a bit pants weather wise (and I havent padded lined or water proofed the boot..... So it will be the toe out Fulvia HF1600 instead.

The suggestion to drive another Hawk is a good one and yes the uprights are 132 modified by Gerry, and I did check the KPI which was 9deg each side.

Ride height was using the tub corners NSF/OSF 160mm NSR/OSF 169mm.

Lancialulu
24-06-2016, 18:49
Little time recently but I knocked back the toe out to 1mm toe in and test drive found it a great improvement. I have a copy of a Gp 4 dry tarmac set up from reparte Corsa Lancia which gives 2mm.

going to LMC AGM weekend on Sunday so that will give it a good run.

The Slug
26-06-2016, 16:44
Hi Tim,

Don't forget we have the sprint track at Curborough on the 25th August where you could try your car over a set track.

Just a thought.

Ian

Lancialulu
26-06-2016, 21:56
Hi Tim,

Don't forget we have the sprint track at Curborough on the 25th August where you could try your car over a set track.

Just a thought.

Ian
Ian, you are on the money! Car ran well today and we covered 250 high speed miles and some very slow on the M11 due to stationary traffic. Tomorrow I will register for Curborough! Is it all day??

Our car won the Strato's concours at the Lancia Motor Club AGM today which wasnt difficult as it was the only one there. It did look smart though...

Lancialulu
14-12-2016, 15:31
A year on from Shades first MOT with me and another clean pass. Embarrassed to say only did 1000 miles in last 12 months (too many other Lancia events for my other cars....).

My tester found a minimal amount of play in the bottom o/s rear "trunnion" that links the bottom of the hub to the lateral suspension strut. I will obviously look at this but does anyone have recommendation for a replacement bush(s).

BTW Its not my garage:cool:

Stratie.fr
14-12-2016, 20:24
Hi Tim

That's a fine MOT passed for Shades!!
Nice picture in front of old Heath Garage!
Hope to see you with Shades next year!!
Cheers
Frederic

LM mic
15-12-2016, 05:51
Good step done for lot next year out drives !! Well done
Me too hope to meet you next year ..... Stoneilelight ??????

Lancialulu
15-12-2016, 07:20
Good step done for lot next year out drives !! Well done
Me too hope to meet you next year ..... Stoneilelight ??????would be nice to put a face to a name. Stoneliegh is a possibility. I now need to finalise the suspension setup. Am getting there but have found the car has too soft rear springs (Leda struts but fitted with 200lb springs when the car had a Beta Volumex engine - now has Alfa12v), and the front possibly too stiff. Not an expensive fix.

Stratie.fr
15-12-2016, 08:34
That would be great to meet all Fellows in Stoneleigh next year!
Hope I could be off to join SEC for this event!

Merry Christmas to all!!
Frederic

LM mic
15-12-2016, 09:47
would be nice to put a face to a name. Stoneliegh is a possibility. I now need to finalise the suspension setup. Am getting there but have found the car has too soft rear springs (Leda struts but fitted with 200lb springs when the car had a Beta Volumex engine - now has Alfa12v), and the front possibly too stiff. Not an expensive fix.


Would you be able to find stiffers ones to suit shock absorbers ???

Lancialulu
15-12-2016, 10:30
Would you be able to find stiffers ones to suit shock absorbers ??? Just spoke with Roger at LEDA and agreed a 325 spring which I have just ordered from Faulkner ex stock. Will try that and play with damper adjuster first then see if I need to have the dampers reprofiled.

Lancialulu
15-12-2016, 10:31
That would be great to meet all Fellows in Stoneleigh next year!
Hope I could be off to join SEC for this event!

Merry Christmas to all!!
Frederic

Merry Xmas all!!

Does SEC have a special parking for Stratii at Raceretro Stoneleigh or is it another Stonleigh event??

ProtoTipo
15-12-2016, 11:14
Does SEC have a special parking for Stratii at Raceretro Stoneleigh or is it another Stonleigh event??

The National Kit Car Show and SEC AGM at the beginning of May Tim.
That's more the 'social' event at Stoneleigh.

There was a special park once at Race Retro, just outside the front door, but for one year only.

ProtoTipo
15-12-2016, 11:20
2011
'Didn't realise it was so long ago?

LM mic
15-12-2016, 13:07
Stoneleigh this year 2016

10656

10657

Strat Fan
15-12-2016, 13:13
Just spoke with Roger at LEDA and agreed a 325 spring which I have just ordered from Faulkner ex stock. Will try that and play with damper adjuster first then see if I need to have the dampers reprofiled.

Possibly quite firm for road use but it'll be nice for track days. That said others on here have fitted even heavier springs to prevent the rear wheels rubbing on the rear arches.

strat24v
15-12-2016, 14:08
Reading into that, track is wrong and a stronger arb is what's in order?

Lancialulu
15-12-2016, 14:25
Reading into that, track is wrong and a stronger arb is what's in order?

John, not sure of point re ARB??? Please explain. Track was right when checked last week. I am sorting out this play identified at the MOT, It is minuscule hence no advisories. I have tracked down to a not tight outer wishbone bush and miniscule play on the inboard rose joint. All these have done less than 3000miles. I am getting a replacement high performance two part inner rose joint as we speak.

Craig - unless I have got it wrong the Stratos tech data indicates a standard spring rating of 330lb/in (when converting from kg/mm). I seem to read in various parts of this forum 325 is a good standard for the Hawk but I understand for an Alfa V6 Hawk nowadays folk have gone up to 350. We shall see!?

Strat Fan
15-12-2016, 16:05
Craig - unless I have got it wrong the Stratos tech data indicates a standard spring rating of 330lb/in (when converting from kg/mm). I seem to read in various parts of this forum 325 is a good standard for the Hawk but I understand for an Alfa V6 Hawk nowadays folk have gone up to 350. We shall see!?

There will be no real difference in the rear spring rates whatever the kit manufacturer provided the car is fitted with strut type rear suspension. The ratio of wheel movement to damper movement will always be all but 1:1 & a car with an Alfa V6 will always have roughly the same axle weights. The front end on the other hand varies considerably due to damper angle & mounting positions.
I can obviously only speak from my personal experience and IMHO I find that 275lb is more than adequate for a the rear of a Stratos replica on the road, I have run the 325lb rate spring rate and it will work perfectly well but it is slightly stiffer than it needs to be for a road car but will offer a good compromise between a road car & a track day car.

Lancialulu
15-12-2016, 17:47
Thanks Craig. We will see. At the moment Shades had run 200lb in. so I will surely see some difference. I have some roads to exercise the suspension in a controlled way so am looking forward to getting back out.

Darkspeed
15-12-2016, 19:44
If I read it correctly the Stratos manual / tech data states that the stock spring compresses 142mm under a load of 300 - 330kg that's a spring rate of 22kg/cm or 120/130lb/in - which from my calculations is a compliant sports car ride stiffness on a strut. - so sounds about correct.

325lb/in at near 3 times the standard stiffness seems a bit on the high side - For a 1000kg car with 40/60 distribution my calculator throws out 250-275 as being in the firm sporting area.

350 lb will only have 1.75" of coil crush so if you have more than 2" of droop in roll or bounce the spring will be unrestrained. Stiff springs are all well and good but you also need to take into account the suspension travel you have on the strut and the bounce and droop you want to have. Having a wheel in roll unsupported and just bouncing against a loose spring is not good.

I always want to have at least 3" of bounce and droop with the spring restrained in that movement - for 3" of coil crush - and no preload on the strut - assuming adjustable platform of course - you need a spring of 220lb/in range - the coil free length etc will depend on the open and closed lengths of the strut and position of the bump stop.

Big subject

Lancialulu
16-12-2016, 09:38
Hi Andrew. Yes I got the wrong page - how irritating is that! Calculated for front ARGHHHH. Having said that looking at the Stratos rear spec the spring is c12" whereas the LEDA strut takes a 9". The Factory spring is as you say c 125lb in....
Strange thing is the LEDA guy thought the 325 spring was in the right area and said other Hawk users were going a little bit higher.
I calculate I will get 2+inches of crush (625+kg rear axle when loaded) if I set the spring with zero preload. (Wonder what the ride height will go to...Need to aim for 175mm). The LEDA strut has 7 inches of travel. Looking at the Stratos tech book it seems the rear damper only has 5.75" travel. Not sure what to make of this other than wheels will dangle as early as my set up??? The setup I got for a Gp4 ashphalt Stratos works car (from Gianni Tonti) had a spec for "Molle" of 17 to 14 % for the rear and 40 to 35% for the front. Can anyone interpret this??
I am aiming to set the car up as sporting rather than comfort (I have other Lancias that fit that GTouring bill!!!) We will see but if I have to go softer its not big deal. The debate goes on.

Strat Fan
16-12-2016, 10:22
Strange thing is the LEDA guy thought the 325 spring was in the right area and said other Hawk users were going a little bit higher.
The LEDA strut has 7 inches of travel. Looking at the Stratos tech book it seems the rear damper only has 5.75" travel. Not sure what to make of this other than wheels will dangle as early as my set up???


Have you considered CV joint articulation with 7" of damper travel?
The Stratos had a central differential so the drive shafts were much longer & consequently the angles the CV joints ran through were less. An Alfa V6 is quite wide across the drive flanges and therefore has much shorter shafts which leads to more extreme CV joint angles. If you have too much droop on the suspension then you will run out of motion on the CV at full droop or at the very least the CV boot could pull off of the cage. 5.75" of travel is more than adequate for a tarmac car even taking into account the bumpstop. Too much bump & you'll be rubbing the arches before you hit the bumpstops. 7" of travel will be fine for a full gravel spec car but I am struggling to see how you can use all that travel knowing the limits on the CV joints & wheel arches. You have got a smaller tyre than some which will certainly help with bump travel.
175mm is quite high for the ride height but does help with the rear geometry & camber gain.
Obviously its fine for Roger to give out advice on springs and travel but unless he's actually owned or driven a car then there is only so much theory & calculation you can apply. There is no substitute for bum in seat testing. 325lb or 350lb springs will yield quite a high spring frequency. A 325lb will be around 2.2Hz, a 350lb will be more like 2.3Hz.

Lancialulu
16-12-2016, 12:56
Have you considered CV joint articulation with 7" of damper travel?
The Stratos had a central differential so the drive shafts were much longer & consequently the angles the CV joints ran through were less. An Alfa V6 is quite wide across the drive flanges and therefore has much shorter shafts which leads to more extreme CV joint angles. If you have too much droop on the suspension then you will run out of motion on the CV at full droop or at the very least the CV boot could pull off of the cage. 5.75" of travel is more than adequate for a tarmac car even taking into account the bumpstop.
I have this issue!!! At least one drive shaft has just pulled through the circlip retainer when I have "drooped" the suspension on a jack. Will have to think about this. What does a Hawk Gaz strut travel??

Strat Fan
16-12-2016, 13:24
I have this issue!!! At least one drive shaft has just pulled through the circlip retainer when I have "drooped" the suspension on a jack. Will have to think about this. What does a Hawk Gaz strut travel??

That one I can't answer I'm afraid, you'll have to find a Hawk owner with current spec dampers to check for you.

colin artus
16-12-2016, 14:28
Cheap solution is to fit some sort of limiting strap; a droop limiting cable from lower spring pan to chassis or (depending on spring length) tie wrap the springs to lower and upper pans.

LM mic
16-12-2016, 16:33
If damper if correctly determined ; its the shock absorber piston to be the stop to full extended stroke (to prevent CV and spherical bearings issues)?????


And probably as soon as springs are becoming stiffer and stiffer some "spring helper" will be need to leave residual pressure on main spring for centering it

As stated choice of springs have been always a "compromise" and a scratch head in beetwen "calculations"( so many sophisticated formulas existing )and "realty" ( only test can seriuosly help)

Lancialulu
16-12-2016, 17:54
Cheap solution is to fit some sort of limiting strap; a droop limiting cable from lower spring pan to chassis or (depending on spring length) tie wrap the springs to lower and upper pans.

I think I will be going for a correct damper extension. My research says the Gaz dampers have a 6 inch extension. I have spent the afternoon checking and measuring. Beyond 6 inches the drive shaft has no further play and starts to pull out of the inner CV joint at 7 inches it is possible to pull it right out due to the free movement gained in the inner joint. I am quite satisfied the installation of the engine is correct with shafts being horizontal with weight on the axle, and angled slightly back from the engine to rotate the cv ball bearing.

With 325 lb in springs they compress 2.5inches laden but without driver/passenger. I am happy with this as approximately the midpoint on a 5.75inch suspension travel.

Lancialulu
14-02-2017, 14:25
After 2 months rebuild of of steering and suspension Shades finally came out of the workshop and into sunshine. A short test drive of some 20 miles showed that she is Transformed and has much nicer steering feel than previously.

I can sense self-centring which was not there before.

So what did I do:

Found minuscule play in steering rack track rod (replaced with new/remanufacured unit from Rimmer Bros
Found play in the bottom steering shaft/rack knuckle (bolt loose)
Found adjuster seized on front Spax coil overs (replaced with Gaz coil-over 325 lb units)
Had LEDA shocks rebuilt by LEDA and fitted higher rate 325lb springs.
Set bump steer to mild toe in on both compression and droop (<.6mm over max travel)
Set corner weights
Set Caster to 5degrees
Set rear camber -0.3deg
Set Front camber -1.0
Front toe-in 1.5mm per side
Rear toe-in 1.0 mm per side
Tyre pressures 24psi
Adjusted ARB push rods as they had changed after all this adjusting.
Ground clearance measured at front back of tub 178mm Rear 168mm front.

Happy with this as a starting point!

Lancialulu
05-04-2019, 15:24
A long time since I posted but another hurdle navigated.

Lancialulu
05-04-2019, 17:46
David

Sent you a PM.

Tim

Lancialulu
11-05-2019, 15:49
Its over 2 years since I thought I had sorted the handling of Shades, but a few drives early this year made me think something was still not right.

Then I happened (by accident as I was fiddling with the oil temperature sensor) to find the offside rear wheel had some lateral play (ie it could be wobbled from side to side giving variable toe- in). Nothing in the vertical plane.

The culprit was (were) the 2 41/2 inch 7/16 UNF bolts holding the base of the hub carrier to the inverted uprated inverse wishbone. Both had worked loose by virtue of the movement of the suspension.

A couple of MOTs ago this looseness had been picked up and I had tightened it all up. But obviously it had come loose again. And it was similarly loose on the nearside too!

As one of the bolts seemed to have a poor thread I replaced all the bolts with new 7/16 Grade 5 self coloured and new nylock nuts. Gerry suggested using lockitite as well which I did.

I torqued to 50 ftlb. I checked today after a 150mile run and they are still tight. More importantly the car ran as stable as I can remember. Lets hope it lasts...