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marcoos_1
15-02-2016, 22:35
Does anyone have a spare 12v engine that they know to be good? Just done a HC sniff test on one of the cars up here and it's looking like we might have a Head Gasket away, or something more sinister.

If anyone has any ideas, please let me know. The usual.....always happens on the run up to Stoneleigh...

Cheers, Mark.

Guy Mayers
15-02-2016, 23:04
I've got an old 12v motor under the bench that came out of the car two years ago, it hasn't been turned since and would need parts putting on it (inlet tract mainly I think plus new belts and clutch and maybe intermediate shaft). If nobody else pops up and you want it FOC you're welcome. When removed it had no head gasket issues and was taken out to upgrade to Cloverleaf/Q2.

Cheers

Guy

john
16-02-2016, 07:30
Nightmare territory that is Mark, beware!
I spent a lot of time looking for one, unsuccessfully. Including a kind offer off Guy for his spare engine which I didn't need in the end because we managed to make a good one out of the two we had. But trying to find a decent 12v ready to fit was impossible.
You are welcome to any bits I have left over if you need anything for a rebuild but I'd say you will be very very lucky if you find something ready to fit.

turbonutter
16-02-2016, 23:23
There are 2 on ebay at the moment, of course you take a chance on the condition.....

marcoos_1
19-02-2016, 22:58
Cheers guys....I know, we're not keen to go down the ebay route. I did that for a 12v engine for my brothers car once before and the guy kept the money and didn't ship the engine.....unbelievable. Anyway, to cut a long story short....after a flight from Glasgow to Bournemouth and a trip to his front door I got the money back. Hence the reason that I wanted to ask on here for anyone that had something, and knew the history of what they had. I'm going to take Guy up on his very kind offer. Hopefully that will keep us going. Thanks John for the equally kind offer of any spares we might need. Fingers crossed we'll have all the bits and pieces off the engine that's in there at the moment.

Are these worth rebuilding at all? I've never really looked into it but I guess they're not really financially viable now. Considering these engines are getting harder and harder to find now (and most likely outdated by more modern stuff)......what's the current thinking on replacements? I know if it were for my car I'd be tempted to go down the Audi Turbo route like lots of the Exige/Elise guys are doing. I know it's a four pot....but it's a bulletproof engine with massive output for no money at all. It wouldn't bother me being a four pot as I really like the wee Volumex in my car. Anyway...probably getting off topic now!

strat24v
20-02-2016, 00:34
156 2.5 v6, cheap, loads about. LB do a mounting kit at sensible money.

john
20-02-2016, 09:19
Doing it again I'd go with Johns suggestion and fit the 2.5 especially if Craig can do the mounts now.
Depends on which chassis the engines for of course?
We did eventually manage to get Frederic one engine built from the two we had ( both of which had "issues"), at CMA in Chester.
Not really having looked at the 12 valve engine closely from a rebuild point of view I was surprised at how simple and strong the actual design and components were initially.
It can be done, and at reasonable cost as long as you don't need too many parts and can find somebody enthusiastic enough to help you. Barry did say to me "Don't bring me any more of these!" though.
We had two engines stripped completely, and one engine built with good block, liners and Pistons salvaged from the two, crank swooped with new bearings and both heads skimmed, valves and seats cut and ground and pressure tested and the whole thing reassembled for less than 1500.
Finding cam followers and shims is impossible and Barry just about managed to salvage enough. Said given more time he could have made some up.

ProtoTipo
20-02-2016, 10:57
156 2.5 v6, cheap, loads about. LB do a mounting kit at sensible money.

We've said it before, have'nt we John?
4 valves for more tuning potential, nearly all 2.5 156s are manuals, 'standard flywheel's ok. 'Silly cheap to buy. What's not to like?
Well, I'd rather not have FBW throttle, but you don't have to have that?

Strat Fan
20-02-2016, 11:38
. What's not to like?
Well, I'd rather not have FBW throttle, but you don't have to have that?
You don't have to but why complicate something that's plug & play?

strat24v
20-02-2016, 15:16
The 156 v6 dbw throttle works fine, its not like the engine picks up massively quick, itd need a lighter flywheel by some margin to outpace the throttle body. Cost of a 156 is a no brainer and youd find one inside 30 - 40 miles. For what you spend trying to acquyire a 12v, you could have the 24 installed.

strat24v
20-02-2016, 15:18
I keep thinking, a great engine would be a big bore block and a 2.5 crank with a 5kg flywheel!

ProtoTipo
20-02-2016, 15:46
The 156 v6 dbw throttle works fine,

I know. Craig just told me.
I need to believe....;)

I blame other major manufacturers for my lack of belief.

ProtoTipo
20-02-2016, 15:48
I keep thinking, a great engine would be a big bore block and a 2.5 crank with a 5kg flywheel!

...and 6 into 1?

I think Ken's got 6 into 1 now?

john
20-02-2016, 16:01
Not sure which car Marks looking to instal in though.
The Corse chassis he has wont take a 24 valve engine without modifying the rear of the engine cradle like Dave Watson had to do with his red car. Nothing too serious though, and cost of doing so would be offset by cheaper engine.
It's what we should have done with Frederics car from the outset, but the decision to rebuild the 12valve was taken by Lionel. Pity he didn't get it done properly.....

Guy Mayers
20-02-2016, 18:18
Not sure which car Marks looking to instal in though.

It's a straight replacement for a 12v in a Hawk that Phil Bishop originally built.

Guy

ProtoTipo
20-02-2016, 18:41
Finding cam followers and shims is impossible and Barry just about managed to salvage enough. Said given more time he could have made some up.

I know we're singing the praises of the later Busso engines, but it does seem a shame that the original 12v isn't supported for some key service/consumable parts?

strat24v
20-02-2016, 19:46
support requires investment and unfortunately, itd cost thousands tooling up to make a few quids worth of parts. Nobody can make a living selling a dozen timing belt tensioners each year. As you say, a shame but its market forces.

Bernard
20-02-2016, 20:47
...and 6 into 1?

I think Ken's got 6 into 1 now?

see also the back end of Erik Comas's car..... 6:1 mi thinks !

strat24v
20-02-2016, 21:18
Think the aseptogyl car was too?

ProtoTipo
20-02-2016, 22:38
support requires investment and unfortunately, itd cost thousands tooling up to make a few quids worth of parts. Nobody can make a living selling a dozen timing belt tensioners each year. As you say, a shame but its market forces.

I know how much it's cost to this viable once more:

strat24v
20-02-2016, 23:49
That looks amazing! Lovely fabrication and prep.

marcoos_1
25-03-2016, 00:10
Sorry.......should have clarified, you are right Guy, it's for my brother Brian's car, Phil Bishops old Hawk.

As a matter of interest.....how does the power/torque compare between the 2.5 engine and the 3.0 12 or 24v?

I've still never done an engine upgrade in the Transformer with the standard twin cam.......but I have just bought a Seat Toledo with the 20v Audi turbo engine....;)

NoCorseChris
25-03-2016, 08:27
Always thought a VAG turbo would make a good choice for replacing a TC. Purists will hate it of course!

marcoos_1
25-03-2016, 09:19
Yes, looking at the size and weight of the Alfa V6 in my brothers car that we are replacing at the moment it looks like a good option! I have to admit that after being in a few Exige/Elise Audi powered cars I was very impressed. For Power vs money it's hard to beat......a very driveable 300bhp is easily achievable, and by all accounts pretty bulletproof. One car I looked at was running 530bhp in an Exige.....mental! (Admittedly he had spent a few quid on that engine!!!).

I picked up the Seat donor car from a mechanic friend who's wife owned it from 9months old, 60k miles and FSH. Interior is full of mold and water (apparently Seat door seals are really bad)......runs sweet as a nut and only cost me 400! I couldn't even buy the blower off my Volmex for that!

I'm going to do some measuring.......I can't see why it wouldn't fit. Like you say....purists won't like it but it's a replica, not a genuine car and I'm not out to kid anyone or achieve authenticity.....I just want some reliable driving fun that's easy to work on. If I do take the plunge then I'll maybe start a build thread....could be a while though as I've got a fair bit of other stuff to get through first......

strat24v
25-03-2016, 10:19
Nobody ever considers the fiat coupe 5 cyl turbo. Pretty sure the gearbox is the same as the Alfa and I don't think the block is any longer. In theory, the box should bolt right up to the previous drive shafts, just two new engine mounts to fabricate.
If you are a good detective, you can get a cam cover from a lancia kappa for the coop engine, it's a straight swap and has the lancia script.

marcoos_1
25-03-2016, 19:31
You're right John......I never even considered it......and I don't know why as there,s a guy at the bottom of the road with a "project" (read moss covered) coupe in his drive. I remember him telling me how quick it was. What kind of power do you get from them in standard trim?

strat24v
25-03-2016, 21:54
200 and a bit but 280, 300 fairly easy to achieve. Have a read up on the fiat coupe forum, loads of tuning info. I have two 5 cyl turbo engines sat under the bench here, both shot though.

strat24v
25-03-2016, 21:58
Inter cooling is always the issue. The early Marlboro cars had a big snorkel which would be perfect to utilise for that.