View Full Version : 15" wheels on a Stradale LB?
ah_sprite
20-01-2017, 17:45
Hi all
As the months slowly (so slowly!) pass by until I take delivery of the kit, I've been putting plenty of thought into getting all the donor bits and bobs sorted, so I'm ready to start in earnest when it arrives.
I'm going to be building a lime green Stradale.
I think I'm right in saying that Craig supplies wheels in 16 and 17", but Hawk will still supply 15" wheels. I seem to remember that the white LB over in the States has been fitted with 15" Hawk wheels, so it would appear that caliper clearance etc at the front isn't an issue.
The question is - will 15" wheels comfortably clear at the rear too? What tyre size is the limit front and rear (not sure how wide Gerry's wheels are)?
As it's going to look reasonably 'original' from first impressions, I'm keen on keeping the tyres as 'chunky' looking as the originals, rather than fit larger diameter wheels with lower profile tyres on, which, in my opinion, doesn't look quite the same!
Pic attached is of a genuine car with 15" wheels of an unknown origin shod with Michelin TB15 tyres!
10781
Hello
There is another brand of wheel you can fit onto your LB ; just have a chat with Craig ..... he have another source for 15" wheels
I have recently watched those on a car being achieved and they lok very very nice ( from what I know they are also slightly lighter than Compomotive ones)
And probably they fit perfectly LB brakes as they are done with LB specifications with another interesting option ; they can be ordered to bespoke colors
Just check also on FB page I remind have watched those on pics showing that specific car being built ( Ferrari engine one):
LB FB page copyright10782
Lancialulu
20-01-2017, 18:35
I don't know about coffin spoke wheels but my original 15" Compmotive Transformer/Hawk wheels clear my 12" AP racing disk and calipers..... (front and back)
Strat Fan
20-01-2017, 19:07
I don't know about coffin spoke wheels but my original 15" Compmotive Transformer/Hawk wheels clear my 12" AP racing disk and calipers..... (front and back)
It really depends on the inner profile of the wheel rim, the depth of the disc bell/position of the brake disc, the size and shape of the caliper etc etc etc.
That said the Hawk coffin spokes offer the best brake caliper clearance of all the coffin spokes wheels I have fitted (Hawk/Roin/Marvic&LB)
This is the diagram that Craig sent me to make comparison, LB on the left, Hawk on the right.
(see below) Craig, duly noted thank you
Strat Fan
20-01-2017, 21:15
This is the diagram that Craig sent me to make comparison, LB on the left, Hawk on the right.
To clarify, this is a wheel sizing diagram for a GP4 Hawk. The RH side shows the Gp4 Hawk rear wheel installed onto the Hawk suspension, the LH side shows the LB wheel fitted to the same suspension with a view to ensuring the wheels ordered fit within the confines of the wheel arches thus maximising suspension movement so as not to compromise the ride quality, performance & handling of the car.
Richards question is regarding an LB Stradale which would be a different diagram altogether.
ironman523
21-01-2017, 21:04
Hi,
I have built a LB with the 17/16 inch combination and yes it is awesome, its very difficult thinking about what you want to build as there are so many options, I opted for a red car with gold/mustard wheels and round group 4 arches and so in many ways I played it safe but not in other ways ie engine/gearbox, however what I ended up with I consider very special and is still in my eyes the most beautiful car I have ever seen and I fall in love every time I enter the garage (I have a mirror at the far end :-)). If I was building again I would build a Kawasaki green stradale with 15 inch wheels, keep it simple, LHD with no heater or air con and as you simply don't need them, in a Toyota engine car anyway with modern insulation etc, dont believe what you read about these cars as the listerbell is a different animal, has to be said 15 inch wheels just look right but the tyre cost is just ridiculous,but with the right suspension and ride height etc !!! there are some incredible cars out there being build and about to be built, the quality of the Listerbell product and whats being done with it is stunning, I am sure yours will be one of them. Personally I am very excited to see them. My advice is think very carefully about what you want before you order it and get it right.
Rob
ah_sprite
21-01-2017, 23:23
Hi,
I have built a LB with the 17/16 inch combination and yes it is awesome, its very difficult thinking about what you want to build as there are so many options, I opted for a red car with gold/mustard wheels and round group 4 arches and so in many ways I played it safe but not in other ways ie engine/gearbox, however what I ended up with I consider very special and is still in my eyes the most beautiful car I have ever seen and I fall in love every time I enter the garage (I have a mirror at the far end :-)). If I was building again I would build a Kawasaki green stradale with 15 inch wheels, keep it simple, LHD with no heater or air con and as you simply don't need them, in a Toyota engine car anyway with modern insulation etc, dont believe what you read about these cars as the listerbell is a different animal, has to be said 15 inch wheels just look right but the tyre cost is just ridiculous,but with the right suspension and ride height etc !!! there are some incredible cars out there being build and about to be built, the quality of the Listerbell product and whats being done with it is stunning, I am sure yours will be one of them. Personally I am very excited to see them. My advice is think very carefully about what you want before you order it and get it right.
Rob
Rob, I completely agree with all your comments. I'm only 25 but from a young age I've always wanted to have a green Stradale Stratos. You're absolutely right with your comment to think carefully about what you want before you commit - I bought Denys Jones' Pirelli Hawk a few years ago, and whilst it was an excellent car, the Pirelli scheme was never really to my taste on a round wheelarch car. I suppose it's one of the reasons I decided to sell it, along with the fact I needed the money to plough into my classic car business.
In an ideal world, I'd have a car on 15" wheels, but looking at tyre availability etc, it might be more sensible to go with the 16s. I've seen a couple of pictures of LB Stradale cars with 16" wheels and I think they do look OK. I'll have to wait until I see one in the flesh before I can fully decide, though. But it's difficult to make a Stradale car look 'right' unless the ride height, tyre sidewall depth etc is spot on! There are plenty of well-made Hawks out there that are ruined by bad wheels/tyres/ride height combo.
Rich
You could always go with the 8" wide LB coffin spokes front and rear, that would give you a wider range of tyre choices. The 9" rears are a bit limited for choice (well, down here anyway). Having said that I do prefer the look of the wider rears on the Stradale. Just a thought.
ProtoTipo
22-01-2017, 08:22
The question is - will 15" wheels comfortably clear at the rear too? What tyre size is the limit front and rear (not sure how wide Gerry's wheels are)?
215 section Michelin TB for the front. Hawk coffin spoke fronts are 8x15.
You can fit 270 TB15s to 8x15 wheels, but they're really not suited (too wide for the rim).
There are gaps in the TB15 range that could be filled with the greater width range of TB5 and P7 Corsa, but those two tyres types are more 'semi slick'.
As it's going to look reasonably 'original' from first impressions, I'm keen on keeping the tyres as 'chunky' looking as the originals, rather than fit larger diameter wheels with lower profile tyres on, which, in my opinion, doesn't look quite the same!
Pic attached is of a genuine car with 15" wheels of an unknown origin shod with Michelin TB15 tyres!
The green car in the photo has Marvics, 8x15 front and 9x15 rears.
The rear tyres on the green car are definitely 270 section TB15.
strat24v
22-01-2017, 10:11
Nothing looks worse than same size rims front and back on a stradale. Marvic is the way to go or anyone else making an 8/9 inch combo. Get saving!
In case of any decision for Marvic wheels just know that I can help with good contact :rolleyes:
Be aware only that they are magnesium wheels and in Italy so ; price in relation , shipping , and delivery schedule if they do not have your dimensions in stock !!!
Otherwise they are something like 9 to 11 kgs less than any aluminium ones !!!!!!! 40 kgs !!!not that bad .....:o
ProtoTipo
22-01-2017, 17:23
This is my favourite look for a Stradale arched Stratos.
8x15" Marvics and 215 TB15s front, 9x15" Marvics rear with 270 TB15s:
http://www.miataclubphilippines.com/events/msccgath/tn_Stratos[1].3.jpg
ah_sprite
22-01-2017, 17:56
Afraid my budget simply doesn't stretch that far! I'll wait and see a LB Stradale on 16s all round and then panic from then ;)
Here's my LB Stradale having a rare trip outside a couple of weeks ago, sorry it's not more of a profile shot but you kind of get the idea of how the wheels look.
Car looks great Paul! But, I'll have to ask a moderator to remove your picture. It's way too sunny and making this Brit doubly brassed off with the UK weather!
Ha ha, sorry about that! We've only had a few great days this summer, the rest have been fantastic! Actually it's been pretty unsettled recently, our summer doesn't seem to start until Feb now, there's still time for you to get here for the good weather.
I'd love to do that Paul. One on the bucket list.
ah_sprite
23-01-2017, 12:52
Looks good, Paul! I'll remember that picture this winter when I'm lying on my back on the floor of my workshop at -5°...!
Here's my LB Stradale having a rare trip outside a couple of weeks ago, sorry it's not more of a profile shot but you kind of get the idea of how the wheels look.
Looks very pretty with those wheels !!!
ProtoTipo
23-01-2017, 14:36
Richard,
If I was in your position, I'd be going for the 16" LB coffin spokes.
Richard,
If I was in your position, I'd be going for the 16" LB coffin spokes.
I agree totally with Chris ; it's the more resonable choice !!!
They are avaible , suit to the suspension , affordable tyres ......
mel lewis
23-01-2017, 19:27
Richard, If your on a budget get a set of Minilites for now, then save up for coffin spokes if you really have to have them.
Mel
Strat Fan
23-01-2017, 19:29
Richard,
If I was in your position, I'd be going for the 16" LB coffin spokes.
Well that's a role reversal! There's me suggesting 15's with TB15's in the 215/270 combination on Roin wheels :cool:
ProtoTipo
24-01-2017, 08:11
Well that's a role reversal! There's me suggesting 15's with TB15's in the 215/270 combination on Roin wheels :cool:
That's more or less what I had on the orange Prototype Hawk, but Richard can't afford them.
Personally, I can cope with the 16" LBs. The proportions look right, and the extra 1" isn't nearly as obvious as the 17" (I know the 17" are group 4 only).
I don't really like the 8x15" Hawk coffin spoke on the rear. 'Fine on the front.
It's that depth on the radius thing, but that's just me. Although John H. doesn't seem to like them all round either.
Photo of 8x15 Hawk on 215 TB15 and 9x15 Mavic on 270 TB15:
ProtoTipo
24-01-2017, 08:18
Photo of when it had 8x15 Hawk wheels all round:
ProtoTipo
24-01-2017, 10:16
Richard, If your on a budget get a set of Minilites for now, then save up for coffin spokes if you really have to have them.
Mel
Genuine mag style Minilites.
8x15 5x108:
& 8x15 4x98 (both in Minilite supplied silver and gold coatings)
Stratos Fear
24-01-2017, 14:14
Minilites look good - especially the silver (but then Minilites have always looked good!)
Allora#2
24-01-2017, 16:44
I think Marcolinos 8 and 9 X 15 Campagnolo from group 4 wheels with TB15 (215/55/15) look's also not so bad!
ProtoTipo
24-01-2017, 17:21
I think Marcolinos 8 and 9 X 15 Campagnolo from group 4 wheels with TB15 (215/55/15) look's also not so bad!
It's that car again!
I'm guessing PAG wheels are still too much money for Richard?
'Just to complete the picture. Here's the Compomotive split rims it started life with:
ChrisCar6
25-01-2017, 22:39
Or 8" Minilite front and 8" Revolution rear............
I don't recommend Revolutions, not enough caliper space, but I can't afford 10 new wheels as well as the new calipers!
ah_sprite
26-01-2017, 01:14
Who'd have thought a simple question about wheels could have prompted 4 pages of discussion? ;) I mean 'wheelie'.
Thanks for all the replies - going decide once I've seen a completed Stradale LB in the flesh, I think! Having seen Paul's pic, they don't look quite as oversized as I thought they might, so we'll see!
ProtoTipo
26-01-2017, 07:52
Or 8" Minilite front and 8" Revolution rear............
Your fronts are 7" Chris.
ChrisCar6
26-01-2017, 21:37
He can tell that just from the photo y'know. The man's a legend!
:D
ProtoTipo
27-01-2017, 06:45
He can tell that just from the photo y'know. The man's a legend!
:D
Well that, and it was me that sold you them!
Strat Fan
27-01-2017, 09:29
That's more or less what I had on the orange Prototype Hawk, but Richard can't afford them.
Photo of 8x15 Hawk on 215 TB15 and 9x15 Mavic on 270 TB15:
I like the proportion of the 215/275 combination & logically a wider tyre on the rear makes a huge amount of sense when combined with the weight distribution & reputation of a Stratos. A 255 size rear would probably be optimum but it doesn't exist so the 275 will have to suffice. I do however feel that on your Hawk Chris the rear wheel protruded just a little too far & would have caused an issue had the car had to go through an IVA test, the car had the same issue when the PAG wheels were fitted but only with the rims in this case. Whether this was due to the wheel offsets used or the slightly wider rear track of the Hawk vs the Lancia I am not sure.
10825
ProtoTipo
27-01-2017, 17:19
I do however feel that on your Hawk Chris the rear wheel protruded just a little too far & would have caused an issue had the car had to go through an IVA test, the car had the same issue when the PAG wheels were fitted but only with the rims in this case. Whether this was due to the wheel offsets used or the slightly wider rear track of the Hawk vs the Lancia I am not sure.
The test wasn't an issue, and I thought it looked spot on.
Omicron Stradale runs even wider 10x15" rear coffin spokes, which must be at least as wide, if not wider than a Hawk with 9" rears? Here:
https://drive-my.com/images/mews2015/drive2015/2015drive/1974-Lancia-Stratos-Stradale-5.jpg
ProtoTipo
27-01-2017, 17:23
From the back:
ProtoTipo
27-01-2017, 17:54
or the slightly wider rear track of the Hawk vs the Lancia I am not sure.
Is that why 12" coffin spokes are marginal on round arched Hawks?
Alan (Skelly's) extensions, for example.
Strat Fan
27-01-2017, 18:42
The test wasn't an issue, and I thought it looked spot on.
Omicron Stradale runs even wider 10x15" rear coffin spokes, which must be at least as wide, if not wider than a Hawk with 9" rears? Here:
https://drive-my.com/images/mews2015/drive2015/2015drive/1974-Lancia-Stratos-Stradale-5.jpg
IVA or SVA? The SVA only looked at the wheel rims, the IVA takes the tyres into account aswell. A rear 3/4 shot or from directly above would clarify. The original Compomotive split rims fitted to the car look to feel the arches really nicely, more so than the 9" Sparwald rims. IMHO
On the Omicron car despite being a 10" wheel the rear rim looks to be no more than flush with the arch and the tyre is stretched a little on the rim which pulls it back in under the arch subtly. The stance of that car is as good as it gets for a Stradale, I prefer the spoke design of the 9" wheel though. What the tyre size I don't know, I can't make it from the pictures.
The yellow Stradale with the 9" rear wheel also sits really well. The 9" wheel with the extra 20/25mm of outer rim is the optimum look for a Stradale IMHO
Strat Fan
27-01-2017, 18:57
Is that why 12" coffin spokes are marginal on round arched Hawks?
Alan (Skelly's) extensions, for example.
This along with the extra -ve offset in the rear wheels when compared to the Roin or Marvic versions would equate to almost 20mm per side extra protrusion across the rims, add on to that the overlap of the 345 P Zero's and you can see why the arch extensions came to be, especially if the car went through IVA on those wheels.
To illustrate Craig's point
ah_sprite
28-01-2017, 00:23
Craig's right - Chris' car on the Compomotive rims looks spot on - the ride height, tyre profile and rim size really works well. It's just a real shame nobody's reproduced the original Stradale rims, as I'd go for a set of those for sure. He's also right in saying that the yellow Stradale (pic attached) is the best 'look'.
It's all too easy to get ride height, rim and tyre sizes wrong, and then the kit car really does look like a kit car - somehow all of the proportions look wrong and the car just doesn't sit right.
I'll wait and see a completed Stradale car on 16s, and try and make a judgement from there! In the meantime, I best get buying some lottery tickets!
10828
Would the camber change with suspension travel at the rear not adversely affect the handling with such wide tyres? Wouldn't it get worse as the wheel/tyre combinations get wider?
Henry
ProtoTipo
28-01-2017, 08:03
9" mag on a Hawk compared to 9" mag on an original Stratos.
I'm not sure how much wider the rear track of a Hawk is? Are there any figures?
ProtoTipo
28-01-2017, 08:09
The test wasn't an issue,
Because it was already tested, I meant.
'Like those mirrors on long stalks that turn into Vitaloni Californians.
Strat Fan
28-01-2017, 09:53
9" mag on a Hawk compared to 9" mag on an original Stratos.
I'm not sure how much wider the rear track of a Hawk is? Are there any figures?
Approx 10mm per side,it may just be the combination of this & the 270 tyre ballooning out over the rim which makes it look wider on your old car (just like with the 345 PZero's on the Gp4's).
I do not know what size/offset the PAG's were that Enzo fitted later but they also looked a little wider set at the rear although they did have the narrower rubber fitted. The Stradale is also a difficult one for IVA as the rear arches cut back in to the rear of the car which exposes an awful lot of the wheel & tyre at the rear of the arch. Both of the pictures above look great from the front but both would be an IVA fail due to the cut on the arch
As Richard says it is so hard to get everything just right & with these cars we have so few options with tyres sizes to make the perfect combination. As stated earlier I would like to see a Stradale with the 215 TB 15" on an 8" rim F and something like a 255 TB 15" on the 9" rim R, this would give a nice 40mm differential between the front & rear tyres which would work for both aesthetics & handling.
Strat Fan
28-01-2017, 10:05
It's just a real shame nobody's reproduced the original Stradale rims, as I'd go for a set of those for sure. He's also right in saying that the yellow Stradale (pic attached) is the best 'look'.
It's all too easy to get ride height, rim and tyre sizes wrong, and then the kit car really does look like a kit car - somehow all of the proportions look wrong and the car just doesn't sit right.
With the number of people building Stradale's vs Gp4 cars it is very difficult to justify the additional tooling charge to produce the wider rear wheel with the extra step on the outer rim which we all agree is the best looking version for the Stradale.
Paul in NZ was the sole LB Stradale order for a number of years, there has been a slight resurgence for the narrow body in the last few years but we're still talking single figures.
Allora#2
28-01-2017, 11:59
Approx 10mm per side,it may just be the combination of this & the 270 tyre ballooning out over the rim which makes it look wider on your old car (just like with the 345 PZero's on the Gp4's).
I do not know what size/offset the PAG's were that Enzo fitted later but they also looked a little wider set at the rear although they did have the narrower rubber fitted. The Stradale is also a difficult one for IVA as the rear arches cut back in to the rear of the car which exposes an awful lot of the wheel & tyre at the rear of the arch. Both of the pictures above look great from the front but both would be an IVA fail due to the cut on the arch
As Richard says it is so hard to get everything just right & with these cars we have so few options with tyres sizes to make the perfect combination. As stated earlier I would like to see a Stradale with the 215 TB 15" on an 8" rim F and something like a 255 TB 15" on the 9" rim R, this would give a nice 40mm differential between the front & rear tyres which would work for both aesthetics & handling.
Front PAG 8" PCD 5x108 offset 0
Rear PAG 9" PCD 5x108 offset -12
Spats fitted to satisfy IVA.
Strat Fan
28-01-2017, 19:41
Spats fitted to satisfy IVA.
How do you go on with minimum radius requirements with the spats fitted? They look quite sharp at the outer edge.
The split rim wheels don't look to stick out as far as Skelly's coffin spokes did, a narrower rim maybe? This car doesn't look like it needs anywhere near the full spat, Alan's looked better once they were blended into the arches & painted over.
The mirrors will certainly meet the visibility requirements although I can't see the radii on the bases.
The rear bonnet pins would fail at Nottingham IVA for sure
I can't see what you have around the upper window frame, have you any other shots which would help show other builders the problem areas you have encountered on the builds you have done?
The spats were rounded, photo does not show that.
Mirrors were correctly radiused, but they look horrible, replaced after test....
Rear bonnet pins fitted by previous owner, removed for test for the same reasons.
Correct CE markings on side windows are hidden when fitted. Examiner was happy with build photos to show, without dismantling.
Beta boot lid lock too sharp, requires radiusing or fit later.
A lot is down to interpretation.
Struan
ProtoTipo
29-01-2017, 11:54
Approx 10mm per side,it may just be the combination of this & the 270 tyre ballooning out over the rim which makes it look wider on your old car (just like with the 345 PZero's on the Gp4's).
Here's the actual quoted data:
Original car: Track (front) 56.4" (Super Profile book)
Transformer: (front) 56.3" (Transformer Cars HF 2000 colour A5 brochure)
Original car: (rear) 57.4" (Super Profile book)
Transformer: (rear) 57.5" (Transformer Cars HF 2000 colour A5 brochure)
Strat Fan
29-01-2017, 19:07
Here's the actual quoted data:
Original car: Track (front) 56.4" (Super Profile book)
Transformer: (front) 56.3" (Transformer Cars HF 2000 colour A5 brochure)
Original car: (rear) 57.4" (Super Profile book)
Transformer: (rear) 57.5" (Transformer Cars HF 2000 colour A5 brochure)
I was using this as the reference
10837
ProtoTipo
30-01-2017, 07:30
That'll be 57.4058" for the 1457mm (terra)
and 57.0118 for the 1447mm (fuso)
Strat Fan
30-01-2017, 07:42
1447mm at zero camber = 56.968" or wasn't I listening at school?
The Hawks I have measured come in at 1465mm (57.677") at zero camber which is an 18mm difference on the rear track & is way off topic from Richards original post?
ProtoTipo
30-01-2017, 11:10
9mm per wheel then?
Back on topic:
Will 14" wheels fit the LB STR?
If so, Richard could go for either of the two Dino wheels. Cromodora 6.5x14" or Campagnolo ('chairs and flairs') 7.5x14".
Both of which were used on the works rally cars with gravel tyres, as seen on David Hanman's Safari car (when he hasn't got his yellow coffin spokes fitted).
Road tyres could be 205x70xR14, XWX, CN36, Blockley, or something cheaper.
ProtoTipo
30-01-2017, 11:31
Like that:
Longtimefan
30-01-2017, 14:28
Six pages and counting!!!!! on the subject of a set of wheels. Richard must be getting very confused by now. The knowledge out there on this subject is incredible.
Like that:
Those are the Campagnolo Ragno (Italian for spider), one of my favourite wheels. I was trying to find some for the Fulvia I was restoring some years ago. They're definitely not a cheap option, and not always easy to find.
ah_sprite
30-01-2017, 17:17
Six pages and counting!!!!! on the subject of a set of wheels. Richard must be getting very confused by now. The knowledge out there on this subject is incredible.
Well, you know how the saying goes - ask a stupid question...
Thanks again for all the replies. It's got to be Coffin Spokes on the car, really - anything other than that or some original Stradale wheels, which is a bit more unlikely, but you never know....!
10842
HI.
Found this article really interesting, but due to being relatively new to stratos ownership i have had a bit of trouble following the finite difference between all of the coffin spoked wheels mentioned. Now i know this is a long shot does anybody have a picture of 1 or 2 or even 3 of these wheels side by side. just to clear the water for a novice. I have a green CAE on 17" rear 16" front and personally still think its off the scale looks wise. just like any another stratos on 15's 16's or 17's
Thanks Sach
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