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Raj_UK
27-06-2017, 11:18
hi Everyone

I've been thinking of taking the plunge for a while and a fortnight ago I paid my deposit for a Lister Bell STR so I've now 12 months to decide what I want to do with it ... LOL

Thinking of a supercharged 3.2 Alfa V6 mainly for the noise ... but not sure I'll I'd have better luck of hitting 400hp more economically with a Toyota 3.5 V6 turbo'd lump

Busso is edging it at the mo ... what are the options power wise for 3.2 Alfa both super charged and non-supercharged, and same with 3.7 or 3.8 builds which I've seen a few of the UK Alfa specialists offering ?

Also not sure whether to go RHD for ease of driving in the UK, or keeping it more accurate and staying LHD

Decisions decisions

At least I think I've decided on Group 4 straight rear arches ... LOL

Any top tips would be appreciated

Oh and if there's anyone in Thames Valley I could pop over to and have a look at their STR and even better a passenger ride in one, that would be fab

:)

cheers

Raj

LPH_UK
27-06-2017, 12:34
Hi Raj

I've just completely rebuilt a 3.0 Busso. Kept the block, heads, crank, rods and pistons but pretty much replaced everything else. Had it balanced, custom ITB setup etc. Let's just say it nearly broke me! I think HP per the Yota engine is much more efficient.

Standard 3.2 is about 250, with cams and ITBs you might see a bit over 300 if properly mapped.

I would imagine the most modern and reliable way of SCing the Busso would be a Rotrex. Looking at the website it seems you can only get it through Autodelta.

Raj_UK
27-06-2017, 14:35
hi LPH (making me think of fuel pumps for some reason ... LOL)

who did you use for your engine work ?

my current car has 450 hp/ton so I don't know if I should aim for this in my STR or keep it more sensible and just use stock internals on a 3.2 Alfa V6 with a supercharger

I'm looking for a really intrusive supercharger whine ... would the Rotrex give me this or is it more refined ?

cheers

Raj

john
27-06-2017, 14:54
Yeah, who did you use for your engine work Leigh??!!
Name 'em and shame 'em!
Welcome Raj.
It ain't just about horsepower. What do you want to use the car for? Might you want to sell it on at a later date?
Lots of factors to consider.

LPH_UK
27-06-2017, 16:03
Hi Raj

I also have a car about the same 450hp / tonne! It's a Lotus Elise with a Supercharger Honda K20. It whines like you wouldn't believe! It uses an Old Eaton design charger, a Rotrex wouldn't make the same noise. It's so fast it scares me to be honest. I had another Lotus running a 4 pot k-series Rover with forged pistons and ITBs that had about 200hp. It was lighter than the Elise but more like 280-290 bhp/tonne. It wans't as fast but it was much more fun to drive quick as it didn't feel like it was going to kill me!

Remember that the Stratos is a very short wheelbase, rear-engined car. Too much power could make it rather unpleasant to drive. But Neil (Turbo Nutter) would probably disagree with me :D

I used a race engine builder based in Bromsgrove. They took forever to do it, for various reasons, but am very happy with the finished article. He's a good guy and a great engine builder. Just don't ever tell him you 'aren't in a rush' :rolleyes:. Most of his clients have race deadlines so they tend to go to the front of the queue.... http://www.shengineering.co.uk/sh/. Their charges were reasonable. It was parts costs, my need to replace just about everything and the custom ITB stuff that escalated the costs.

Leigh

renmure
27-06-2017, 20:51
Having also just paid a deposit I will keep an eye on this thread as well for hints and tips.
I am minded set on a fully rebuilt 3.2 litre GTA engine on throttle bodies with custom ecu for mine. I had my mind set on an Italian engine as being in the right character for the car. Again a personal thought, but the supercharger whine never really gave me a thrill. Each to their own tho :)

Only other comment I would make is that it's great having massive power to weight ratio if you are a driving god. I have something at the moment with a tad over 600bhp/ton but it can be fairly easy to stuff it (don't ask me how I know that) or find yourself backing off from having fun for fear of stuffing it (yup, me again) but on the other hand if you hit the sweet spot and have the right power in the right car at the right level of competence then I guess it should be ace. I am making the call that for me in the Stratos that should be somewhere between 300-330bhp

turbonutter
28-06-2017, 07:52
There are many questions above..... While it would be nice to see a 400bhp supercharged Alfa, it's not an Day task to do yourself and the "off the shelf" rotrex kits won't give you the sound you want and might not fit without modifications. You also need to remember that at that power level, you are at the limit of a 5 speed Alfa box, and probably past it with a six speed.... it is probably ok i the Alfa was they are front wheel drive and don't have the traction that a stratos has, especially if you go with wide tyres. Of course it does somewhat depend on how you drive.....
if you are looking for 400hp then the obvious choice is the supercharged Toyota engine which is already being installed in at least one ListerBell.

As for driving, with 500bhp, my car is far from easy to drive, but I have a turbo engine, so I ant really comment on a supercharged one, but if it's fun you are looking for don't go with big power, 300bhp is plenty to get you in trouble in a car like the stratos......

Bernard
28-06-2017, 09:41
Just for my 10 peneth

The Strato's was (and is mainly) about handling... going round corners very quickly, changing direction like a kart...a cross country pocket rocket.... I suspect that a 280 / 300 bhp Strato's will be just as quick round a tight twisty track as a 500BHP car

If you have any doubt's look at some of the Comas vids........and he does not have 500 bhp....... and unless you are a mega star you won't be any faster

Now pure straight line speed is something different.... but do you want to go 130mph + in a Strato's ??....... the wheelbase geometry will make it interesting !

Phil

john
28-06-2017, 11:24
Looking at the above posts I'd say listen to the voices of experience before you make your choices!

Stradale493
28-06-2017, 12:43
As others have said, I guess it depends what you want from the finished car - in my case something that looks and drives very close to an original Stradale road car with similar performance characteristics (power / torque), but with as many modern creature comforts (air con, cruise control, sat nav, reversing camera, DAB radio, digital music jukebox) as I can stealthily / subtly add. I went with the Busso engine as I always liked the look of the Alfa V6 (unlike other manufacturers engines that all seemed to have large plasic trays sat on them to hide the ugly plumbing and wiring). If I was going for pure performance I would have gone the Toyota route.
I had a S1 Elise for 10 years and kept the engine totally standard as it always have enough performance for me on the "twisty bits" of the local roads and I had no interest in taking it on the track

turbonutter
28-06-2017, 14:08
Just for my 10 peneth

The Strato's was (and is mainly) about handling... going round corners very quickly, changing direction like a kart...a cross country pocket rocket.... I suspect that a 280 / 300 bhp Strato's will be just as quick round a tight twisty track as a 500BHP car

Phil

We proved that at curborough (if you don't know it's tight and twisty) the other week, most of the time Bob and me were lapping around the same time, and I have nearly double the horsepower. my best lap was a couple of seconds faster, and I have no doubt a better driver would have been even faster.... and I could probably go faster if I had more track time, but on a twisty track, it's hard to use the power, without spinning, which I did a few times just to prove I was trying:cool:

Raj_UK
28-06-2017, 15:31
Hi All

nice to find an active forum and thanks for all your comments

TBH when I had my Evo I was happiest with how it felt when it was 400/400 ... when I went to 600 I couldn't be flat out as much and I'd start to get torque steer despite it being AWD and I'd lose traction in all but the hottest weather

Currently I have a KTM X-bow which is running 375 hp and I'm getting the STR as an all-weather version of a fun car to have

I've had turbo'd cars as my fun car (brum brum cars as my 7 year old and 4 year old called my Evo then X-bow) ... but I'm thinking I'd like to have a really intrusive supercharger whine ... for a change

I guess this must be the silliest reason on the forum for someone to go for a supercharger ... LOL

I'm thinking I just want it to have a reliable drivetrain ... what are stock internals and drive train good for ? since I always seem to have bad luck with cars ... LOL

Is there anyone with an STR or another Stratos near Reading who would let me have a poke around it plz ?

cheers

Raj

strat24v
28-06-2017, 16:08
Superchargers all generally all about torque which is what the Alfa gearbox isn't too good at. If you fit one, you need a fair bit of boost to offset the weight of kit fitted compared to the weight of the vehicle otherwise you can have even less power to weight. Only kit available is the rotrex but that's a belt driven turbo, more about top end. The right part for the job is an opcon/autorotor lysholm supercharger but you'll have a Merry time engineering it all . Sensible advice is to aim for 300 HP, ample in such a short car, you can achieve that with a high stressed Alfa installation or go the Toyota route which is what most here would now do if they were starting again.

Raj_UK
28-06-2017, 17:05
how do the Toyotas sound compared to the Alfas ?

I know it should be about function not form ... but tbh this will be a toy

ProtoTipo
28-06-2017, 17:12
Fit a modest V6 for starters, get used the car, then upgrade later.

If light enough, any Stratos rep. will really shift with 160 to 200 bhp.
Upwards of 250 bhp is silly quick.

ProtoTipo
28-06-2017, 17:14
Just for my 10 peneth

The Strato's was (and is mainly) about handling... going round corners very quickly, changing direction like a kart...a cross country pocket rocket.... I suspect that a 280 / 300 bhp Strato's will be just as quick round a tight twisty track as a 500BHP car

Now pure straight line speed is something different.... but do you want to go 130mph + in a Strato's ??....... the wheelbase geometry will make it interesting !

Phil

This man seems to know what he's talking about.
Whoever he is??

john
28-06-2017, 17:35
Yes indeed. Discount the opinion of the big power theorists and listen to blokes who've been driving them round for years.
In the end, you build the car you want, but if it's a toy, make sure it's one you like or it'll get left in the cupboard.....

Raj_UK
28-06-2017, 21:36
How does resgistering the car work if it's a spaceframe chassis ?

what if I used all new parts not a donor car for example ?

the reason I ask is that I'm looking for a STR-ey personalised plate but don't know what year I should buy ?

Guy Mayers
28-06-2017, 21:46
I don't think it'll matter? If you use a donor you get an age related plate, if it's all new components (and you can meet emissions requirements) you should get a current plate and then it's just a matter of putting a cherished plate on it. What you can't do is try to make the car appear younger than it's registration date..

Guy

john
29-06-2017, 06:47
Exactly Guy. So if you are buying a personalised plate AND you end up with an age related plate on your car, make sure the personalised plate you want to transfer on to your car is from a car the same age as or older than the age related one.

Raj_UK
29-06-2017, 11:19
is there any audio difference to having ITBs as opposed a single TB ?

pros seems to be better throttle response ? but cons are trickier to setup ?

or have I missed anything more important ?

cheers (from the ITB newbie) ... LOL

turbonutter
29-06-2017, 11:44
is there any audio difference to having ITBs as opposed a single TB ?

pros seems to be better throttle response ? but cons are trickier to setup ?

or have I missed anything more important ?

cheers (from the ITB newbie) ... LOL

you can get more induction noise from itb's, but it depends if they are into an air box, or with more open type filtering

itb's can if done properly give more power or more torque... the length of the trumpets being important to extract the maximum

Bernard
29-06-2017, 12:03
Dawie de Villiers offered me an engine similar to this one (2012)... a non turbo engine but with one huge inlet butterfly as opposed to individual ITB's

11495

... could be an option ?..... easier to set up ?

LPH_UK
29-06-2017, 15:06
I'm a fan of ITBs. Jenevey is only setup available for the Alfa and I wanted summat different - so I had my own manifolds designed and made :rolleyes: and used some very short Jenvey ITBs. Just ordered some trumpets to fit. I know Craig at LB is also looking at ITB setups. A Busso V6 on ITBs sounds :cool:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4272/35373784636_d598a3dc3a_c.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4251/35413121725_a3e2b3cf33_c.jpg

Raj_UK
30-06-2017, 09:50
does Craig @ LB go on this forum ?

I see there is a Jenvey option on the LB pricelist ... does anyone know if this is just an adaptor to allow them to be used or the full kit including the ITBs and everything needed to get them installed ?

LPH any completed pics of the engine bay plz ? and how did your build compare to the standard setups ? just curious ... don't suppose you have dyno graphs ?

soooo many options on the STR ... good job I have a build queue to wait in line for so I can hopefully get everything planned

:)

LPH_UK
30-06-2017, 10:25
Hi Raj

Craig does use the forum but probably best to directly email him with specific questions about options etc.

The Jenvey kit is complete as far as I know. It's manifolds, ITBs, trumpets, linkages etc.

My engine is still not in the car - still don't have my rebuilt gearbox back! So no dyno yet I'm afraid.

Leigh

Raj_UK
03-07-2017, 09:39
yup .. as it happened I had an email from Craig with lots of useful information in it :)

one big question I have left is do I source the parts separately, eg go I look for an engine and then a gearbox etc ... or do I need to buy a donor car to get a V5 ?

Sorry for this newbie kit car question ... LOL

Stratos Fear
03-07-2017, 10:58
Hi Raj - if you want to go the Alfa V6 Busso route suggest you buy an MOT failure . I bought one on EBay a couple of weeks ago (my second, to be kept as a spare - having got rid of the first bodyshell a few days previously - wife not happy but that's another story !) ) for 300.

In this way you get the whole car with engine and 6-speed gearbox - as you will probably need the ECU, engine loom, fuel pump, air vents etc as well. You will need the V5 to get an age-related plate rather than a Q Plate (if that bothers you). You can choose to keep the engine un-changed (so long as it runs OK) or re-build it. Mine is un-modified apart from new clutch, water pump and drive belts.

Alternatively you can buy a brand new Toyota engine with special ECU , ITB's etc and go for a new registration - but that will cost another 10k or so.

Peter

Raj_UK
03-07-2017, 11:30
thanks Peter

So is it an IVA for a new build and a donor car build ?

or a different process for each option ?

john
03-07-2017, 12:20
IVA for both. No avoiding it.
The car is tested more or less on the same basis no matter if it is built from all new parts or with some from a donor.
I think the only difference in the test procedure is that a car built with a donor engine is emissions tested on the age of the donor engine ie. it has to meet the standards prevailing at the date of engine manufacture. One of the reasons for it having an age related plate.

Raj_UK
03-07-2017, 13:49
If I don't go with a donor car, are there any UK based specialist Alfa breakers I can contact to request "the standard Stratos donor parts" from ?

Just making sure I'm not reinventing the wheel in my googling

john
03-07-2017, 14:25
If you don't go with a donor car, you will not have a vehicle identity to which your donor parts will relate. Therfore you would have to prove the age of the engine (and maybe other parts) to the IVA inspectors. A difficult thing to do.
You may well end up with a Q plate then.
If you are opting to build from all new parts and get a brand new registration then you will have invoices for the engine etc which will have a date on them and may well identify the engine manufacture date or its emissions data.
If you satisfy the inspectors and the registration people you would then get a brand new registration plate just as you would if you buy a Ford from a showroom.

LPH_UK
03-07-2017, 15:35
As far as I know you can have one 'reconditioned' component on a brand new car with Respect of IVA. My Alfa engine and box have been rebuild to 'as new' and I have a receipt from the builders plus all the parts receipts to support this. However it may be that the engine and gearbox are seen as 2 parts (I'm pretty sure they are).

john
03-07-2017, 22:14
It would be a bit bloody minded if they baulked at giving you a new registration by calling an engine and gearbox two components. Is that what you are going for Leigh? New reg?

LPH_UK
03-07-2017, 22:40
Plan is for a new reg if I can - or at least one newer than the donor. If I can get it registered as new it opens up a few plates I have an eye on that are newer than my donor car. There may be ways around it - it's all in the wording you use I think.

But it's not the end of the world if I can't get a new one I guess.

To be honest the main thing is to be able to have Euro 2 emissions on the engine. Now way will it pass anything stricter! I think you can do this with an 'as new' engine. As the car is counted as new but only has to meet the emissions for the particular engine you use. Mind you, if I've misunderstood then I might not be able to even consider registering as new.

john
04-07-2017, 06:51
Yes, that's as I understand it too, that you can test an "as new" engine on the emissions standards relevant to the production date for the engine.
Proving that date without an age related V5 maybe the tricky bit.

Raj_UK
04-07-2017, 10:02
oooh I hadn't even considered being able to have it registered as a new car on a 17 plate for example

I don't suppose anyone knows an IVA tester who can confirm ?

LPH_UK
04-07-2017, 10:04
I still have the V5 with the engine number on it. The Alfa, which is no more, is listed as SORN.

Stradale493
04-07-2017, 11:41
oooh I hadn't even considered being able to have it registered as a new car on a 17 plate for example

I don't suppose anyone knows an IVA tester who can confirm ?

That is the process my car should be going through anytime now - "new build" with a professionally refurbished 3.0 V6 Alfa engine and box.
I'm hoping it comes out the other end with a new car 17 plate, although I believe the latest emissions / price-based tax bands won't apply

ironman523
04-07-2017, 17:55
Raj, I own a ListerBell which has the Toyota 2GR-Fe engine and has a new registration through the IVA process, My registration number would be on a 16 plate but I have a private reg V66STR, I wanted V6STR but Craig has that :-). My car has 325Bhp which is very easily achievable using stOck ECU, I can confirm that the car is very Driveable with the quad VVTi and drives like a normal car until you boot it when it turns into a bit of a monster. The sound in the cockpit is incredible and the high revving V6 suits the car probably being more like the Ferrari engine than the Alfa which whilst an awesome engine in its time
is a bit of a thumper. It's a personal opinion but you are going to spend a fortune piddling about trying to get 325-400 HP out of the Alfa engine, even using a new Toyota engine you will probably do it cheaper and you will end up with something super reliable with arm wrenching torque. I can confirm that for new registration for IVA you are allowed 1 rebuilt to as new component. If you go to IVA with receipts saying both engine and gearbox have been rebuilt then you should not get a new registration. I was very careful that my documentation said that my engine was new and the gearbox rebuilt, they are 2 separate components. End of the day it's your decision, and that's the beauty of it. My ten Penneth aim for 250-300 Hp, it's not all about power, you need to spend money on upgrades to the suspension and brakes and having it set up properly otherwise you won't be able to enjoy the power the engine does have. I have a build thread on here if you are interested.
Rob

Raj_UK
05-07-2017, 09:53
hey Rob

thanks for the reply

A link to your build thread would be great

and hmmm now that's introduced the Toyota 2GR into the mix too ... good job I have 12 months to wait for the chassis to arrive ... LOL

And I thought that V6 STR would have gone to someone on here ... I wonder if V666 STR is still available ... LOL

The Slug
05-07-2017, 11:31
As a free user you will not be able to access the build thread.

Trust me when I say that joining the club it will be the best few pounds you will spend, and then you will have access to the full forum and builds etc.
Regards
Ian

Raj_UK
05-07-2017, 16:43
hi Ian

Yup it's on my list of things to do

No excuse I know ... LOL

:)

Raj

Normb666
05-07-2017, 19:43
Hi Raj - welcome to the Weird World of Stratos Reps :)

Saw you'd asked about V666 STR, so to save you looking, it's actually on a white Hyundai SUV. How do I know? Well, I saw it in Ashton-in-Makerfield a few months back and thought "awww, shame"! Hey Ho....

ironman523
05-07-2017, 22:58
As Ian says Raj, join the club then you can access the good stuff and probably find answers to all your questions.

Raj_UK
13-07-2017, 10:08
I know it's personal and varies from person to person but what are your insurance quotes for STRs ?

I had a quote of 661 for both a new part build or a donor car build for a 300 hp STR

I am old at 41 though with full no claims (boring on road driver ... LOL)