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ironman523
01-08-2017, 00:21
I am interested so am asking a question, I have built a ListerBell to what I believe is perceived to be a good result, I have absolutely no previous experience of mechanical engineering or any engineering or mechanics for that matter, I am just a petrolhead enthusiast with common sense who has worked in public service. My perception is that the Hawk is so stupidly difficult to build because it has has never had any development that the only people who have ever had any success in building one are people with an Engineering or Mechanic background. This I have to say has been largely borne out to be true by people I have met who have successfully built or are building the Hawk. Whilst the LB is making dreams come true it seems to me that the Hawk kit has broken more dreams than it has made in that there over the years have been numerous unfinished kits come up for sale etc by people who gave realised that it is beyond them, as indeed it would be beyond me. How many unfinished LB kits do you think we will see, 0 so far I think!!!!. So my question is has anyone built a Hawk kit with Zero previous experience of mechanics/engineering etc.Be interesting to know, My opinion is that the cars look similar but are actually chalk and cheese, the LB is not a kit car but is a Component Supercar, If you took a Lotus Evora apart at the side of my car it would look very similar. My car and LB has been recently featured in the "TKC magazine which to me only served to highlight the amateurish nature of this magazine due to poor journalism. The Hawk probably belongs in TKC whereas the LB is a bit more Top Gear.
As Said "devils advocate", so what do you think !!!!

Guy Mayers
01-08-2017, 00:33
I'm an accountant by trade, minor car maintenance before I built my car 29 years ago. The first effort is still going strong thank you very much.

Rotor1
01-08-2017, 02:15
I have an engineering background and I hope to start building my Hawk soon. I prefer the Hawk because of its closer link to the original Stratos. Above and beyond that, I have been collecting parts for many years now. I am also quite happy to be driving something which, even though it may not be powered by the Dino engine, in my opinion is closer to the driving experience that original Stratos drivers would have encountered. The Lister Bell is in no doubt a well engineered car, but I still prefer the Hawk. In the end when it is all said and done, everybody is different and people will purchase what they like. Some enjoy the challenge of the build and some do not.


We all share the love for the original car and that is all that's important.


Henry

hollytree
01-08-2017, 06:32
Try finishing a part built Napiersport, and with only Lionel to give advice!

I nearly did give up a couple of times but thanks to Craig, No Corse Chris, Guy, Neil and too many more to mention who all answered my calls i got there.
I am a chartered engineer who has done other classic rebuilds in the past and whilst I am pleased with the end result, I would not recommend that build route to anyone.
Based on all I have experienced, seen and read in the last 6 years since starting, I would go the LB route if I had my time again.

ProtoTipo
01-08-2017, 08:39
Mick Worrall built a finished car from a secondhand Hawk kit, and then a finished car from a new LB kit, both in the same time.

Mick also built a Corse I, but I think that may have taken him a little longer, but not much?

LM mic
01-08-2017, 08:49
I prefer the Hawk because of its closer link to the original Stratos.

Henry

Henry
NO and NO and NO and NO ; THousand of times !!!!!!!!!!
This is an absolute false affirmation and you are writing what you heard on various shows and Stoneleigt weekend from years
This is an big and old "street legend " and now it's time for true "Mythbusters " to explain why !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Hawk kit have ;

1/ a multitubular chassis with a center in fiberglass like all kits ( past own and new ones ) so no conection to the real deal which was totaly in steel and with different interior steel panel and rear tubes !!!

2/ Front suspension ; beside the kit uses a fiat upright as a base all others components are totally different specially the geometry and all wishbones including the very special steering rack!!! so no connection to the real deal and no way to fit an Hawk item to a genuine chassis and vice and versa !!!

3/ Rear suspension ; the hawk kit uses a modified road car upright cut and welded with a bespoke strut and wishbone completly different in forms and the geometry is far away to the original one ( the original one having an alumiium cast upright with completly different strut fitted very specially !! so no connection at all with genuine one and no way to fit onto a hawk chassis a genuine upright ; tubes are located totally differently

4 Body work ; it is said from longtime in this legend that the molds have been taken from and original car ..... of course !!!! but all kits have been molded from this shape and the result is ; no one mold is similar to the other ..... there are at list 2/3/ sort of different wind screens and side window molds and it's quite a pain to know which one replica part is the best to fit to an original steel chassis ( just ask to actual racing teams which one they use ... ) !!!!
Just compare to GT 40 world ; all manufacturers argue that their body was molded on "original ones " !!! in fact homebuilders do not care ... they prefer to have good quality molding with good aspect shutlines and not to much work to do to assemble this bodywork ..... how long it takes to fit an Hawk body to the chassis ? Just check ANDY's thread ......

So then ... now please think about all these ( and more details)

There are actually 2 kits manufacturers ;
It is far best to compare them only about how they are delivered , how each one is built , how each one is engineered and not telling again this one or this one is more "close" to the genuine one
Each brand of kit have his interest and the choice is open ; this is avery good opportunity to potential customers
Each home builder can have his own opinion and probably both kits are pleasant to built and each one can be happy with the result he is able to achieve but again please forget this idea or being " very close or not to the original one "
Our cars will be for ever REPLICA's .... he only nice compare to do is to watch at how much work have been involved in each different builds and how nice can be this particular built ;
There are very very nice Hawk builts and there are very very nice LB builts but there are also poor Hawk or Corse builts as there will be for sure poor LB builts ......

Aplogise if I have been too "rude" but after building so many different replicas and 40 years of car building I am happy only when reading true stories and not legends !!:o

john
01-08-2017, 08:58
Ooh dear, can of worms time again!
I think the LB is what it is because it was designed that way, more or less from a clean sheet of paper relatively recently, and by someone who has seen the best that the industry has to offer and what sells kits.
The technology available to Craig when he sourced his components is leagues ahead of what was available when the Transformer was designed and the Corse for that matter too.
Development is the key in any successful product and we should note Craig has a policy of continual development too!

No doubt the Hawk has suffered from little development over the years. In my opinion this is down to lack of any effective competition.
There are some very nice aspects of the Hawk, snd some not so good ones.
But it's very buildable by anyone with the necessary passion and enthusiasm.
For very many of us the build process is the most enjoyable part. There are people on here who chrome plate the return springs of their over centre catches!
No criticism for that, but it illustrates the lengths that people will go to for build satisfaction. Hopefully they are looking forward to a satisfying driving experience too. In the end.
Their was some talk on the forums at the time LB was launched that it was a "brave move". I don't know if this was said through concern about dodgy economic times or if it was through over confidence in the Hawks position in the market. The truth is that the Stratos replica market was crying out for the LB, it's created its own demand and deserves every success coming it's way.
It's been said many times here that choices are personal. You Build what you want how you want it and nothing is truer
I may have been partisan in some of my own comments in the past but I've learnt on here that we all share the same passion and as far as I'm concerned any Stratos replica is a thing of beauty no matter whence it came or who built it!

ProtoTipo
01-08-2017, 09:02
There are very very nice Hawk builts and there are very very nice LB builts but there are also poor Hawk or Corse builts as there will be for sure poor LB builts ......

That is so true Michel.

As far as unfinished Lister Bell STR kits goes. There has been just one up for sale so far, but give it time.
'Less to do with the type of kit and its ease of build, but more with people underestimating their amount of free time,... as always.

Strat Fan
01-08-2017, 09:10
11662
Oh dear, Too late........

LM mic
01-08-2017, 09:23
It's been said many times here that choices are personal. You Build what you want how you want it and nothing is truer
I may have been partisan in some of my own comments in the past but I've learnt on here that we all share the same passion and as far as I'm concerned any Stratos replica is a thing of beauty no matter whence it came or who built it!

ABSOLUTLY !!! + 1+1 +1 :o

The Slug
01-08-2017, 09:45
Folks.....

Before we turn on each other as normal....... I think this boils down to Robs review in TKC and the lack of response to that article.....

Myself I tried but failed to find a copy, such is its good circulation!
So I cant comment on what was said.
Maybe Rob can post a copy?


As I have said in a previous post we had an original car at Silverstone, (Shame more of you didn't get to see it) and with the Clams down you would have to look hard at it so see the differences, if you knew what they were in the first place.

Mr Joe in the street would not know and indeed I heard people looking at at Pauls car and saying its a replica......case proven.

That's not to knock the car but to prove just how good people on here can build cars.
John H wont thank me but we all know how long its taking John to build his car and we are all following Guys efforts to prove it can be built. Doing a second car does help.

As for closer to the original, Ask Ken or Paul the owner of the car about the suspension...we thought that they were all cast uprights, not on Pauls car (Might have that the wrong way round)

Which is easier to build.... give a chimp a Listerbell and he will no more put it together any faster, than he would a Hawk.

Lets but the Lid back on this can before it gets nasty, as I said I would have liked to have see the magazine review to see what was said.

Bernard
01-08-2017, 10:32
11662
Oh dear, Too late........


Like it !

Griff
01-08-2017, 10:42
Well said Ian, the quality of build will be as variable as the final paint scheme choice, it will depend on the time, skill, effort, and time (yes I know I put it twice) the builder puts in to the project. Familiarity will lessen the time demands, hence why professionally built cars, irrespective of which kit is your starting point, will generally be finished sooner, and a better quality finished product than a first effort, home build. Before this gets silly, bitter and full of recrimination, please let us all remember that the only reason we are all on this bb, is because we all belong to the STRATOS enthusiasts club. It is the enthusiasm for the original car that unites us, the replica, or genuine car we own is just the means that allows us to experience, to whatever degree that enthusiasm in the first person. Different people will concentrate on different facets of that, which is clearly evident by how something will be of huge importance to one owner to get right, will be a total inconsequence to another owner enthusiast.


Celebrate the enthusiasm, welcome the diversity, and stop this mine's better than yours nonsense.

turbonutter
01-08-2017, 19:28
My car is a corse, so I am really out of this discussion and I have gone out of my way to try and not replicate the original stratos in many ways, which I don't need to point out, but for those that don't know, the interior, dash front clam, engine, rear lights, wheels etc are all non original, yet one person came up to me at silverstone on Saturday and said that my car was the best of the bunch, in livery and attention to the build..... it's all down to individual perspectives........

Lets just enjoy the Stratos!

Normb666
01-08-2017, 21:41
I think I understand where Rob's coming from, not because of anything said here, but what was written in the TKC article. There was a large chunk of how good the Hawk is, and another section on Accidents I Nearly Had, which I thought were a bit out of place in an article ostensibly about Lister Bell. It didn't help that it was badly written and came across as somewhat disparaging to Rob and his car, and I'd have been a bit pi$$ed off too if it'd been me.
I don't think Rob's saying the LB is better than the Hawk or vice versa - I think he just wants some kind of reaction - and he's got it :)

Good to see how grown up the responses are, though. No backbiting or trying to score points....what a top bunch of guys!

When I built my Allora back in the day, there was a definite "it's not as good as a Transformer" vibe going around from people who didn't know enough and/or hadn't investigated the kits properly. I remember being at a Lancia Motor Club do in Wales and getting compliments on the car, and then the question "aren't these Transformer replicas good?" or summat like that got trotted out. When I told them it was a Handmade Allora there was the sound of jaws hitting the floor, and the response was, I kid you not, "but I thought they were supposed to be shit!".....hey ho.

That sort of thing was one of the reasons I sold it - I got fed up of people telling me it wasn't supposed to be any good. The real killer was Steve Greenwood redesigning the chassis when he took over the project, and mine was suddenly...well...a bit shit :)

These days, Alloras are recognized as good cars in their own right, as they should be. Like I said, we're all a lot more grown-up and nicer people now, and we all know the best Stratos rep is....our own :) :)

strat24v
01-08-2017, 22:39
Real and hawk suspension isn't interchangeable. But guess Frant may have fabricated some wishbones as a one off. Any claim as to fitting is plain lying.
Btr told me hawk panels needed a lot of work to fit Perez's car.

ChrisCar6
02-08-2017, 00:29
Just got the TKC article but have yet to read it.
I am an amateur tinkerer who built a Hawk, then rebuilt bits of it then rebuilt some of those bits again. (It's the way I drive!) Previous high point of experience was changing the engine on my RS2000 with one arm in plaster and I had a fair bit of glass fibre experience from watercraft, but mainly an arrogant DIY-er who can't see why I can't do what others do.
The Hawk is a 1980s product with little development since, LB is a 21st century product. The tools, techniques and materials available to the man in the street have progressed hugely in that time too. They are what they are; beautiful and a blast to drive, made individually to our own specs. Love em all!

westonTB
02-08-2017, 00:34
As a newcomer to building a 'kit car'/replica thus far I have not found anything too tricky with my Hawk Lhd Stradale. Coming from a nineteen year ownership of a Beta coupe and running a integrale as daily transport the Hawk is a joy to build. I don't feel the need to rush my build (two years in) but I'm aiming to have the car on the road in the next two years. Juggling a young family, self employment, 60 hr working weeks and not a deal of holiday is time consuming as I reckon four weeks left alone and I would have the car at least ready for the IVA. In another life maybe!

Lets be honest, real or replica is ultimately irrelevant, the concept of this car in many guises is superb and we are all lucky to have these fantastic machines, some people cant afford to run one car let alone one or several cars we in many ways don't need.

Vive la difference!
Tim.

ProtoTipo
02-08-2017, 08:48
Good to see how grown up the responses are, though. No backbiting or trying to score points....what a top bunch of guys!


Well said Norm.
I didn't fear any 'meltdown', even with this thread starter.

Longtimefan
02-08-2017, 11:28
Touché Norman, I think we are all here as we admire the Original car, concept, and team behind it, and what it achieved, I certainly am. Would have loved an original,but.

As far as unfinished LB's are concerned, there may be one going if I don't get it finished before I finish!!!!! ONWARDS AND UPWARDS.:rolleyes:

Robin TM

Bernard
02-08-2017, 11:29
To take up on Robs (Ironmans) comments regarding the writing of the article in TKC...

I have had a couple of articles done on Eric in the past, "Retro Cars" and "Classic and sports car", the reporters / writers of both publications spent well over an hour with me discussing fairly finite points on the car etc and didn't make any notes whatsoever !!!... so when the magazine came out there were numerous errors on what I had said... which of course could put me in a bad light.

If you are writing an article on an LB why did the writer feel the need to compare it to a Hawk ???..... when you read articles on the Hawk do they mention LB or Corse ??? I don't think so.

So I can understand Robs frustration when the writer can't stick to reporting facts without any bias.

You only have to look at the Clarkson reign on TG to see what damage they can do ! (either on TV or in a magazine)

As Norm alluded to ... glad we ALL appreciate ALL the cars irrespective of Model

Phil

The Slug
02-08-2017, 13:30
So can we put this one to bed then in an adult way?

Enough said on the Joy of ownership, regardless of what make, model, or how it got built. Lets stop typing and start driving....lol

Nice run in the lakes coming up ...

Lancialulu
02-08-2017, 18:30
And as an epilogue, it may be helpful to keep me informed of any approaches members get from the motoring/KC press so I can help manage the journalistic process with them to mitigate these issues.

Tim
Press Officer
and owner of a professionally built Transformer.....

Normb666
02-08-2017, 23:15
Ian, at the moment it's HOPEFULLY a nice run in the Lakes...I thought it was great when I recce'd it, but we'll have to see what you lot think of it!! (I may well ply peeps with quantities of alcohol, take pix and then subject them to blackmail to ensure a good review ;) )

royer
02-07-2021, 04:17
Hi Rotor1

I'm an appraiser in Chicago Il and am working on a multi car collection that is an estate. The owner passed away and I have limited info on his complete Hawk Stratos. It uses an Alfa V -6 engine. Nice condition can't find any good comps for a hawk car. What is the value range on these autos? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

john
02-07-2021, 11:39
Hi Rotor1

I'm an appraiser in Chicago Il and am working on a multi car collection that is an estate. The owner passed away and I have limited info on his complete Hawk Stratos. It uses an Alfa V -6 engine. Nice condition can't find any good comps for a hawk car. What is the value range on these autos? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

A good deal of money more than they were worth a few years ago!
A lot depends on the specification, but I the UK prices are now generally above £50k and several cars are under construction or just completed which are potentially worth upto £100k.
In the states you have rarity on your side value wise. (They are still not plentiful over here)
A decent road legal car in the states has got to be worth $100k, surely?
What does everyone think?
There have been plenty of posts expressing great interest from the US, some actual requests for cars, and if it is any indication of demand, a fair few forum members in the States keeping an eye on things.

ChrisCar6
02-07-2021, 23:47
As John says, likely to be fought over. A big factor in where the price ends up is whether it is or could be road legal in the States.
Can we ask who the owner builder or owner was? We may know some of the car's spec and history.