View Full Version : Stratos Bodyshell
There are some immaculate replicas around, Jaguars, Ford Gt40s, Cobras, Ferraris etc.
Some are closer to the original then others, merely clothing humbler donor vehicles.
We are well served by the Stratos kit manufacturers, most onlookers cannot tell the cars from the real thing.
The give-aways are real cars are left hand drive, most kits are right.
Most kits don't have the Ferrari Dino engine.
Centre cockpit compartment is in steel, kits are all glass-fibre.
There are many other detail differences, but the cars can be built very close to original if you have the time and dedication.
I have a local firm that is prepared to re-manufacture Stratos cockpit compartments in steel, if there is interest.
They could also, and would prefer, to re-manufacture entire Stratos chassis, but they would need the necessary dimensions from an original car.
I guess that is not going to happen....
Any thoughts...?
Struan
Guy Mayers
07-11-2017, 20:26
Re-inventing the wheel Struan? Or is it following in footsteps?
http://gto-tech.com
You could speak to David Hanman who may know more about these replica chassis?
Guy
Yes, it is a different route Guy, closer to home.
Guy Mayers
07-11-2017, 23:14
Good luck with the project Struan, hope it comes together!
For those trying to find the information http://gto-tech.com/products/chassis/
It's a mightily impressive piece of work. I'm presuming the price will be just as impressive?
Stratie.fr
08-11-2017, 00:20
It's a mightily impressive piece of work. I'm presuming the price will be just as impressive?
The buyer of my Corse was tempted to order this GTO Tech chassis and said it's circa 50k£...Not sure he exaggerated!!
50 k is something lower in price if you compare to a Glenscoe GT 40 chassis !!!!
beside the fact actually is quite possible to built an " in period" sort of continuation of a strat ( chassis , uprights , AP brakes , gear box casing and lower engine case plus all internals
remanufactured in Italy , France ,UK) what will be the use of such car ?
Obtaining HTP papers is a ver tuff and long work and need to be very very very introduced on the FIA offices and penetrate the loby of those Marshalls helped by rich ownerswho are protecting
the value of those toys
very few companies ( Glenscoe for the GT 40 continuations , Karcraft for the MK4 continuations ans some few others for Chevron , lola and Porsche prototypes) are on this very closed and small Historic rebuilders" world"!!!!!
50 k for the chassis will mean rouhtly ( with the actual value informations collected and to be verified) that the total amount for purchasing all items will be more or less
180/200 k ( including engine built with original remanufactured injection ) so adding some labor and paint could be a total of 260/280 K ?
It's alway about half value of an auctioned original one ?:) ( and half price of an GT 40 continuation )
This is why that small world is so nicely closed and protected
Just for information some years ago a swedish company did all the presstools , welding tolls , casting tools and a serie of 10 steel monocoque chassis and parts for GT40 and they where kickly and absolutly "rejected " from that small world of historic rebuilders !!!!!:confused:
Struan
Your project seems interesting and nice on tecnical point of view ; it will be interesting too to know for what purpose it will be done .....:)
I guess you know there was at Stoneleigh this year a company advertising the possibility to scan bodies at very very low prices:rolleyes:
Stratie.fr
08-11-2017, 12:04
Right Michel!
The final price for building one FIA reconstruction ( Gelsoe GT 40 or Lancia 037 by Vaison sport ) is circa 300k at least!!
Gelscoe and Lancia 037 have HTP FIA for historic racing...Not sure for this GTO Tech Stratos!
Humm from what I know recently an Gelscoe GT40 is more circa 450/500 !!!!:rolleyes:
ProtoTipo
08-11-2017, 13:26
Humm from what I know recently an Gelscoe GT40 is more circa 450/500 !!!!:rolleyes:
Wow:
http://www.gelscoemotorsport.com/images/gallery/189.jpg
I wonder if this kind of thing is substituted for genuine cars at historic motor sport events. To save an original tub from any risk?
Stratie.fr
08-11-2017, 13:28
Price increases every day ...with some speculation!!
One Gelscoe was sold this year in Paris but the price is on ask on the website and I asked it by mail and was replying by phone contact or visit only...I guess the price was high as you says because the car is eligible for all races (le mans classic Goodwood and american races..)
https://www.classic-racing-annonces.fr/annonce/ford-gt40-gelscoe/
I think maybe wrongly the price for building one is less.
I visited last year Mick Sollis (Southern GT) he received me personally and showed his last GT40 and gave the price list around 90-100k for one accurate turnkey with all same engine and gearbox as original
His cars are agreed and one of them ( don't remember the name of the owner ) races frequently at Goodwood revival and other races in UK!
Gelscoe and Lancia 037 have HTP FIA for historic racing...Not sure for this GTO Tech Stratos!
HTP for a new chassis ?????....... its laughable !
Stradale493
08-11-2017, 15:14
His cars are agreed and one of them ( don't remember the name of the owner ) races frequently at Goodwood revival and other races in UK!
That is surprising to hear. I had understood Goodwood were quite sniffy (not keen) on "continuation cars" and only accepted in-period competition cars. Certainly that was the stated position concerning the recent Jaguar E-type lightweight continuation cars
Stratie.fr
08-11-2017, 16:15
Original GT 40 are becoming more rare now in competition and some people have chance to use continuation for that...
As same way as new chassis obtains FIA HTP...with the "magic key"!!
Price increases every day ...with some speculation!!
One Gelscoe was sold this year in Paris but the price is on ask on the website and I asked it by mail and was replying by phone contact or visit only...I guess the price was high as you says because the car is eligible for all races (le mans classic Goodwood and american races..)
https://www.classic-racing-annonces.fr/annonce/ford-gt40-gelscoe/
I think maybe wrongly the price for building one is less.
I visited last year Mick Sollis (Southern GT) he received me personally and showed his last GT40 and gave the price list around 90-100k for one accurate turnkey with all same engine and gearbox as original
His cars are agreed and one of them ( don't remember the name of the owner ) races frequently at Goodwood revival and other races in UK!
Gt 40 like Mick Sollis is building are still replicas ( they cannot be accurate due to the tube chassis ?) so they enter in categories like " saloon cars " when they race or only "demonstration" cars or specific races with no connection to historic series ( In france they named this possibility " régularité" ( this is LB kits where admitted at Tour de corse ; the Historic "international champion ship" named C.E.R does not allow any sort of replica ... you must show at scruteneering HTP papers ( so this is why as stated previously some "intelligent" fabricator companies have understood years ago , obtaining this permit of building "continuations"!!!!!
Again those continuations are very very rare ( so very very pricy !!!) and are submitted to a very close and accurate exam before to get the" famous race pass" , but ,as usual if you are the friend of the friend of the brother to the sister of someone in FIA office or if you are .....millionaire the pass is easy to get !!!!!:D
Today if you are "clever " and rich plus well introduced , you can start a rebuilt of watever historic car starting from only ; one original rear lower bolt of the trany !!!!!!
Starting from this important and" historic , genuine , rare part!!!!!!! you can reinvent and rebuilt totally the car !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Non speaking of the new owners of old companies ( Chevron , Lola etc ) and some old rebirth companies like Karcraft in the US who are rebuilding brand new "historic cars" !!!! Using the name continuation and giving brand new Vin plates with serial number starting at the last chassis built 40 years ago !!!!! Karcarft have sold 10 brand new" J" cars ( with Ford permission !!!) in the past only 3 or 4 chassis where done !!! Guess who did those !!!!:rolleyes:
C'est la vie !!!!!;);):D
Stratie.fr
08-11-2017, 17:30
Exactly Mich... No word to add ;)
I have been talking to GTO Tech. Steel shells available from 40,000 Euro, 20K deposit and balance on completion, 2-3 month turnaround depending on spec.
I have been talking to GTO Tech. Steel shells available from 40,000 Euro, 20K deposit and balance on completion, 2-3 month turnaround depending on spec.
That's an interesting news !
is that with VAT or ex VAT ?
It is a rather honest price considering all the work to do to achieve such tub , plus all press tooling investment and press forming
A GT 40 tub is actually probably 90 to 100 K plus VAT !!!!
Stratie.fr
08-11-2017, 20:38
For sure it's cheaper than expected... a sensible price for almost a masterpiece! :rolleyes:
That's mean you could build one "Stratos continuation" for less than 100k...if you obtain FIA papers it would really be the bargain of the century!
For sure it's cheaper than expected... a sensible price for almost a masterpiece! :rolleyes:
That's mean you could build one "Stratos continuation" for less than 100k...if you obtain FIA papers it would really be the bargain of the century!
??? it's only 10 k less than said on that previuos post ??? And we do not know if those 40K are with VAT or not !!!
Less than 100 K ???? do not think so .....
all ancillaries including pricy brakes and magnesium wheels plus rear hubs etc etc could be at 70 K
rebuilding an engine with new castings and bespoke injection would be also 60/65 K
If you do arought total ;
40 + 70+65 at least minimum 175 plus various unexpected high cost for genuine parts like instruments , shock absorbers , water cooler etc etc
Stratie.fr
08-11-2017, 22:10
I mean 100k£ for the car ( VAT and labor cost excluded )
I know a real Stratos Dino engine with gearbox fully restored for sale at 50 K
I think you could get magnesium wheels with brake and another parts for cheaper than 70...It's certainly a big amount of money but all is relative
Definetely not for my wallet but a few people could be tempted nevertheless!!
The market for Stratos body shells or parts is not wholly for replicas, of course.
...although there are more replicas than originals...
Original cars are decades old now, suffering from corrosion, accident damage etc.
There are plenty of British sportscars driving around with bodyshells not produced by British Leyland.
There is an industry of factor parts for most cars over 10 years old.
That's s good point Struan.
Heritage shells. I'd not considered that before.
I've thought for some time that modern methods of producing metal parts ( which I don't pretend I understand fully) such as CAD, laser cutting and hydraulic forming, combined with some good old fashioned fabrication techniques like an English Wheel, might well make limited production if a steel shell viable.
When you study the detailed photos of the original shells ( particularly the great set of photos on the Japanese restoration we have a link to somewhere on this site) then there don't appear to be any panels which couldn't be reproduced fairly easily.
The giant jig shown on the GTO site is essential but it doesn't look too technical.
And if you are driving around in a shiny new heritage shelled car everyone says, how lovely. Not, it's a fake replica!
A new Dino V6 engine and gearbox is serious money now. If you fitted another engine in your original Stratos (Alfa V6?), would it still be a Lancia Stratos?
:confused:
Struan
Umhh, who would have thought we could get so philosophical!
ProtoTipo
10-11-2017, 11:15
I once saw a Ferrari 308 advertised with an Audi engine in AutoTrader.
The original engine had broken a cam belt.
Put a V8 in a Triumph Stag they still call it a Triumph Stag....
:rolleyes:
ProtoTipo
10-11-2017, 13:05
Put a V8 in a Triumph Stag they still call it a Triumph Stag....
:rolleyes:
I know what you mean. A pushrod V8, rather than the original OHC V8.
[QUOTE]And if you are driving around in a shiny new heritage shelled car everyone says, how lovely. Not, it's a fake replica!
A new Dino V6 engine and gearbox is serious money now. If you fitted another engine in your original Stratos (Alfa V6?), would it still be a Lancia Stratos?
:confused:
Struan[QUOTE]
Struan,
four valve heads, engine blocks, and improved (stronger) gearbox casings are all available, as are suspension components and wheels, so 'continuation' engine/gearbox/running gear to go with your 'continuation' will muddy the water a lot further.
Audi commissioned complete replicas of both type C & D Auto Union GP cars, and nobody gets sniffy about those, similarly with Aston Martin GT4 Zagato and 'lightweight' Jaguar E type 'continuation' models. Just tell people what it is exactly, don't try to pretend its something different.
Normb666
10-11-2017, 17:32
I can't actually believe that people care about stuff like this - the "originality" question, I mean. What does it matter where the bodyshell came from? So what if you swapped the Ferrari motor for an Alfa one, or whatever? So long as they're running round and people get to see and enjoy them, that's the only thing that counts. And if it's your car, you can do what the L you want with it, and give two fingers to the "purists".
I saw a documentary a while ago about the continuation run of lightweight E-Types that Jaguar were making, and they interviewed Lord March and some guy who'd got an original '60's one., and when asked if the new ones would be welcome at Goodwood the answer was a very snotty "certainly not" with a look like they'd smelled something bad. What's that about? The new cars are made by the original company, using original drawings, to be as exact as humanly possible, even using the same series of chassis numbers. Shame the interviewer didn't ask why, cos I'd love to know. Wonder how many bits the guy with the original one has replaced over the years...
Anyway, if originality is so important, I assert there's not a single original car on the planet over 6 months old. Cos what happens when a car goes for its first service? Yep, they change the oil and filter...so it's not original then, is it. (yes I know it's pedantic, but so are the people who put such great store in "originality".)
So I say to these people, get an effing life - it's just a bloody car!!!!
Rant over... for now :)
... and the works rally cars, race cars, get through several bodyshells/chassis in the season, a bit like Trigger's broom still original....
ProtoTipo
10-11-2017, 18:02
... and the works rally cars, race cars, get through several bodyshells/chassis in the season, a bit like Trigger's broom still original....
Yes, this is very true, but there are an odd one or two works cars that have never been re shelled since the period they were rallied, and that matters a lot.
I think Vatanen used to get through 5 shells a year at one point! Of course it is not hard to switch chassis numbers, if the need arises.....:rolleyes:
Of course it is not hard to switch chassis numbers, if the need arises.....:rolleyes:
That wasn't unknown in the Motoring News Championship back in the day!
ProtoTipo
10-11-2017, 20:15
I think Vatanen used to get through 5 shells a year at one point! Of course it is not hard to switch chassis numbers, if the need arises.....:rolleyes:
Vatanen's surviving 1981 RAC Escort is about as original as they come.
I know of one 'ex works' car that he drove, that's as opposite to that as you can get.
Yes, Know where you are coming from, competing at Silverstone some years ago (Historic Rally Sprint) in my restored Mk 1 Cooper S
I was told by an 'expert', my car was dreadful, as it had 9 dimple sills, and to be 'correct' it should have 7 dimple sills!!!
smiled, and thanked him for his input, at which point he made his excuses and left!!!!!!!
ProtoTipo
10-11-2017, 20:53
I was told by an 'expert', my car was dreadful, as it had 9 dimple sills, and to be 'correct' it should have 7 dimple sills!!!
smiled, and thanked him for his input, at which point he made his excuses and left!!!!!!!
Awesome!
Yes, there's some serious "I think you'll find ......." types in the Mini Cooper Register.
Stratos Fear
11-11-2017, 10:59
Norm - couldnt agree more !!
Talking of Mk2 Escorts....
https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/1979-ford-escort-mkii-rs1800-group-4-ex-henri-toivonen-pca-team-total
ProtoTipo
11-11-2017, 14:00
Talking of Mk2 Escorts....
https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/1979-ford-escort-mkii-rs1800-group-4-ex-henri-toivonen-pca-team-total
"The stunning Escort has now been totally remanufactured..."
strat24v
11-11-2017, 15:23
It says a new bodyshell. If that's the case, it's not the original car, it's a replica.
ah_sprite
11-11-2017, 17:59
That car is owned by a friend and his father (both called Peter!). It's atop-quality restoration and I don't doubt it's flawless. However, not much originality left!
ProtoTipo
11-11-2017, 19:19
It says a new bodyshell. If that's the case, it's not the original car, it's a replica.
They're telling it like it is with this 'TOTAL' PCA car, so no problem.
It's when something is presented as a piece of history, when all that's left is the V5c, or less...
monoposto
12-11-2017, 18:11
Wouldn't the Hawk stuff bolt up to the replica stratos tub? Excuse my ignorance on the Hawk cars for a second, but I thought the chassis was almost exactly like the original, it just used a fiberglass roof and body panels?
Wouldn't the Hawk stuff bolt up to the replica stratos tub? Excuse my ignorance on the Hawk cars for a second, but I thought the chassis was almost exactly like the original, it just used a fiberglass roof and body panels?
:rolleyes:
Guy Mayers
12-11-2017, 18:33
Some bits will, some won't, some bits need different sized bushings but why would you want to? If you've got a steel shell/chassis then where's the point fitting anything other than the right parts? Otherwise you're just devaluing the new shell?
Guy
strat24v
12-11-2017, 20:16
Wouldn't the Hawk stuff bolt up to the replica stratos tub? Excuse my ignorance on the Hawk cars for a second, but I thought the chassis was almost exactly like the original, it just used a fiberglass roof and body panels?
If was actually possible to fit Hawk suspension to an original Stratos or vice versa, you would have something that looked a little like this. Don't believe the hype!
If was actually possible to fit Hawk suspension to an original Stratos or vice versa, you would have something that looked a little like this. Don't believe the hype!
+1+1+1+1 !!!!!!!!!;);););)
ProtoTipo
12-11-2017, 21:10
If was actually possible to fit Hawk suspension to an original Stratos or vice versa, you would have something that looked a little like this. Don't believe the hype!
There's Matt H's new Hawk with Stratos suspension, but that has many many mods:
http://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/2809-Matt-s-Stradale/page3?
monoposto
13-11-2017, 01:42
Some bits will, some won't, some bits need different sized bushings but why would you want to? If you've got a steel shell/chassis then where's the point fitting anything other than the right parts? Otherwise you're just devaluing the new shell?
Guy
To get it on the road and enjoy without much more expense than a normal kit? You could then upgrade to the real bits over time.
To get it on the road and enjoy without much more expense than a normal kit? You could then upgrade to the real bits over time.
Will be very interesting to know which parts of this kit will fit to a "real steel body shell" ?????????????????????????????????:rolleyes:
Beside the front upright ...... that is anyway a Fiat part ........
ironman523
13-11-2017, 17:59
I'm with Norm, also if it was built in the 70s by Lancia at the factory then it's a Stratos, anything else is a replica, don't matter whether the chassis is correct or the tub is steel with correct suspension and engine, it's still not a stratos and never will be. If I had enough money to build one with a "proper" type chassis and steel tub then I would forget that push things a bit further and buy a real one. They are for some bizarre reason far more available to buy than a replica which very very rarely come to market.Im holding out for £100,000 for mine when I sell it.:-)
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