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Normb666
09-07-2019, 22:33
Chairman’sRant – July 2019



(or,The Thoughts Of Chairman Norm….with apols to Mao Zedong, haha!)

Greetings, Stratossers,

So,no doubt you were intrigued by the title, and thought, what’s withhim then? What’s he got to rant about? Well it’s not so much“rant” as in “moan”, but rather just stuff – this and that,things that’re going on, the general ebb and flow of the world, and not necessarily concerning our fave bolide. Although there may wellbe the odd gripe and whinge, but that’s OK – I regard it as areasonable accommodation for having to put up with you lot :) See, back in the day when there was the regular newsletter, there’d always be a few words from the Chairman, or newsletter editor, or whoever. Don’t get any of that with a Forum…. nottill now, anyway :-P So here it is, the first in an occasional series – just my opinion, with which you might agree, or you might not. See if I care :)

Anyhoo,where to start? Well here’s a topic close to most members’ hearts– values of “replicas”. (yes I know neither of the kits available today are true, nut-for-nut, rivet-for rivet replicas, rather more homages to the originals, but “replica” seems to be the generally-accepted term, so that’s what I’m going with.) Yeah, replica values: deffo on the rise. Where a few years back you were looking at £25 – 30K for a decent motor, now we’re into the mid-50’s and rising….both Nick’s blue LB (on their stand at Stoneleigh), and the yellow Hawk at Total Headturners, both sold inthe mid 50’s, Nick’s (inpractically no time at all) to a car collector whose garage already contains a Miura and aMcLaren, and the Hawk taking a few months to sell, having been reduced from the initial £59K to £55K. So what’s going on there, then? Well it seems to me that decent replicas have now transcended their humble “kit car” origins and are now appealing to proper car collectors, who might well be able to afford the Real Thing but who’ve been seduced by the lure of the“Restomod”, i.e. a car that looks like the original but has modern tackle underneath the prettiness, e.g. brakes that work,aircon, heated screens, modern suspension, etc. etc. The fact that our cars have been built by amateurs from a kit matters not a jot anymore, and the one-time stigma of the “kit car” has pretty much disappeared. I think this has all been helped by the high standard of the kits themselves, and the fact that people can’t just nail any old pile of ex-scrapyard bits together and call it a car. (Thanks, IVA.) Also,some classics are now worth so much that owners don’t want to risk them and so commission a replica that they CAN use. So compared to the (frankly ridiculous) amounts being asked for some of these classics (Dino 246 at £350K? DB5 over half a million? you’re having a laaarrrf…) £50-60K for a motor that, to the untrained eye, is pretty much indistinguishable from an original is a bit of a bargain…Thing is, though, that we, as a club, don’t all seem to have cottoned onto this yet. I know values are variable and depend on loads of factors – how well was it built, what motor, blah blah blah, but I think we’re still undervaluing our cars. I’ve no idea what that yellow Hawk was really like, but I had a good crawl around Nick’s when I was deciding whether to go for a LB, and I’ll tell you what - he sold it too cheaply. Another 5k, maybe even more, methinks. Mine’s still in build, and I’m not skimping on it anywhere – I know how much I’ll have in it, and I’ll tell you something: if I ever need to sell it, it’ll be for more than that….a hell of a lot more. No more excuses for it “only being a kit car”!

This all leads me nicely to another subject, viz:over-complication f modern motors...

Anybody read the article in the latest EVO, with Gordon Murray? Y’know, the guy who did various McLaren F1 cars, the Alfa F1 “fan car” that got banned, and the McLaren F1 road car? Well,the reason for the article is that he’s doing another road car – gonna have a bespoke nat-asp 3.9 litre V12 by Cosworth, a large fan at the rear to control all the aerodynamics, and it’s gonna be LIGHT and SIMPLE. Seems our Gordo hates the modern obsession with horsepower, lap times, top speeds, and unnecessary fripperies such as electric this and that, and automatic doodahs that just add weight and detract from the driving experience. Hmmmm…..remind you of anything? Yep, that’s right, sounds a lot like the self-built bolides residing in our very own garages...this is, in fact, a large contributory factor in me deciding to go for a Stratos rep, because I too am cheesed off with all the, let’s face it, shite, that comes as part and parcel of modern motors. Lane departure warning? Blindspot alerts? Auto-fold mirrors? Proximity monitoring? Speed limit warnings? Gimme a break! I thought we already had all these safety systems – it used to called “The Driver”. So now I guess allyou have to do is steer the damn thing and the car’ll look out for everything else… whatever happened to personal responsibility and thinking for yourself?? (sorry, REALLY getting into rant territory there!) And there, I reckon, is another reason why our cars are worth more than a few years ago – these (fairly) wealthy peeps, who could splash the cash on a 911 or similar, don’t want all the daft gubbins that go with such cars. So they get a cool-looking motor they actually have to think about driving...just like it used to be.

So what do we reckon? Am I on the money here? Do you disagree? (Of course I’m right, I’m Chairman and never wrong. Honest.) Let’s hear your thoughts! (er,you ARE thinking, aren’t ya…?)

Till next time….

The (Social) Norm!

colleyv12
09-07-2019, 23:28
After that, I think we need the magazine back, well done norm

renmure
10-07-2019, 00:15
...... and breathe .... :)

Good rant.

Values are funny things and I agree that there's almost an air of apology when selling a kit car that it's actually... a kit car. In the past they were weird things built by weird people in a shabby shed and probably only of interest selling to an even bigger weirdo. You spent a fortune on it just because you could and knowing that you'd never get anything like it back again.... but so what. It's all change now. No more shabby sheds. All the weirdos have garages and some of them have carpets in them!

Bernard
10-07-2019, 08:09
Nice one Normy

Just to add to the value's theme.... I understand that Nigel Wilkinson's wife sold his car in the mid / upper £50's

Re the pricing... our cars are now approximately 10% the value of an original car...... but 100% just as much fun ! IMHO..... may not quite have the noise of that glorious Dino V6.... but still sounds great in it's own way.

Phi

David J
10-07-2019, 09:09
I am with you regarding all the electric gizmos that come with modern cars, manufacturers seem to be obsessed with them the more the merrier. Slowly but surely ones ability to drive your own car is bean taken away, heading ultimately to fully autonomous cars, that is if they can sort out who is responsible for driving the car when the inevitable collision occurs.

Regarding car values I am in progress of getting an agreed value for mine sorted out, I think £15,000 is a we bit on the light side. A figure of £35,000 would be more realistic for a twin cam Strat.

David

ProtoTipo
10-07-2019, 09:13
The rising values are a bad thing.
For the Stratos replica owners who are never going to sell, that is.

All it does is put insurance premiums up.

It also puts the cars out of reach of the original 'weirdos'.

AndyGuyton
10-07-2019, 10:59
I can definitely see why rising values can be a bad thing, but from someone who has an LB on order, the values lend a level of security to the purchase. The LB is a MAJOR purchase for me and seeing the prices that the built cars are going for lends a sense of 'safe money' to the order. In itself, I think this may cause me to spend a little more than I might have ordinarily, resulting in a higher spec car which can only be good for the LB brand and Stratos replicas in general.

ProtoTipo
10-07-2019, 11:29
I can definitely see why rising values can be a bad thing, but from someone who has an LB on order, the values lend a level of security to the purchase. The LB is a MAJOR purchase for me and seeing the prices that the built cars are going for lends a sense of 'safe money' to the order. In itself, I think this may cause me to spend a little more than I might have ordinarily, resulting in a higher spec car which can only be good for the LB brand and Stratos replicas in general.

Yes I agree Andy,

In the case of today's builder, you will see the money again, should you sell.
In the past, it was always a 'labour of love' thing.

AndyGuyton
10-07-2019, 12:46
From everyone I've spoken to, the 'labour of love' build is thankfully still alive and well. The value of the finished car can only help with the 'man maths'. :cool:

john
10-07-2019, 13:57
Excellent thread. Excellent viewpoints.

ChrisCar6
10-07-2019, 14:02
As one of the weird people in a shabby shed who just nailed any old pile of ex-scrapyard bits together, I think the current prices reflect the product of 'kits' of the 2010- era. What the value of older products are is of more interest, but so few of them sell that I don't know if we'll aver get a good agreement.

Longtimefan
10-07-2019, 14:14
I'm definitely in the "Labour of Love" camp, the value is irrelevant.

red5
10-07-2019, 14:58
Nice ‘rant’ Norm, forum needs a lively debate and nothing like money to get people interested.

When I placed an order for a LB, it was always the challenge of the build that interested me. Originally my thoughts were if I lost 10% when I sold it, then so be it.
It’s a hobby, much like watching football, making model trains, sailing etc whatever floats your boat!

In the two years I spent building, interest in the cars grew rapidly, even though the traditional kit car scene has declined considerably, the interest in replicas seems to have risen.
At Stoneleigh this year, barring the sevens, there were more MR2 ‘Ferrari’ replicas than anything else. Before I get flamed Im not putting Hawks or Lister Bells in the same category as the MR2s.

I think most on this forum could have a good guess at what my build costs were, when I originally thought about selling I had a figure in mind and happened to speak to Norm and Richard at Phils garage day who both convinced me I could get more.
Short story being I perhaps could have got more but I did achieve what I believe to be a good price, in a short time.
When you look at what LB sell turnkey cars for the price I got is comparable, argument being Lister Bell sell too cheap!

My personal opinion is (regarding value, not the joys of ownership) when asking 60k/70k/80k for these cars, what can you buy in comparison?
While there are people with enough interest and available cash to buy them, the rarity of a Stratos replica will always demand a premium. There are plenty of cars you can buy for upwards of £50k with the rarity factor and those cars will always retain a market value.

I wonder in 10 years’ time, when the number of available Stratos replicas has increased and the number of customers has decreased, will they still retain such residuals?

red5
10-07-2019, 15:04
I would like to add that I achieved the price I did for my car thanks to the help from Craig and Lydia at LB for which I am very grateful.
When I originally advertised the car I had numerous enquiries offering me in the region of £40k, the genuine enquiries for the asking price were far less. I don't believe I would have sold the car so quickly if LB hadn't offered to put it on their stand at Stoneleigh.

renmure
10-07-2019, 18:32
From everyone I've spoken to, the 'labour of love' build is thankfully still alive and well. The value of the finished car can only help with the 'man maths'. :cool:

Most of my petrolhead mates know I'm doing the Stratos thing. All are hugely interested and pestering for updates but apart from a couple of weirdo mates who have built their own Ultimas in their posh garages, none of them would ever consider building a kitcar. They are all perfectly sane, sensible and normal folk like myself who already have proper hobbies like watching footie on telly, growing turnips in the allotment and a bit of gardening in summer and while we/they want the car, they want it NOW or as close to now as possible. A bit like the chap who bought Nick's car on the spot and put it next to his Miura.

IMHO some companies have moved the game on so far that while the semantics between kit-car and component-car/recreation/whatever are fairly subtle the final product is almost aimed at a different audience and in time (perhaps even the near future) there will be a substantial shift from producing kits to producing turn-key cars. The latest fully speced Ultima RS is a £100/£110k pile of boxes or a £140/£150k turn-key car. I recon more folk will want the car than the kit. At £55k/£60k/£65k/£Head-in-the-sand£k I recon one of the Stratos companies must be about the same tipping point.

I'm not looking to lose money on mine. If I was I would have got a yellow one and put blue wheels on it (only kidding) but I'm sure if I ever sell it that it will sell to someone who had no interest in ever building one.



When you look at what LB sell turnkey cars for the price I got is comparable, argument being Lister Bell sell too cheap!


Yup. I guess so.

Guy Mayers
10-07-2019, 18:59
Can't say I'm entirely comfortable with the prices people are quoting for cars at the moment but it was that that helped me make up my mind that building the second one made some sort of sense at the time!

I'd add that prices for all replicas appear to have been climbing in recent years. I was offered £80k at Race Retro 18 months ago, not entirely sure how serious he was and I didn't want to find out. There are people out there with the cash to buy the right car. Increasingly that seems to be the older cars too where they are legally registered. It apparently helps with the importation of cars if they have historic status? And if you want to go into Europe or the USA having LHD is a definite advantage. Unfortunately there are also cars out there selling for decent money that aren't properly registered and that's causing people real issues with registration outside the UK. I'm aware that the car sold at auction recently (Volumex powered Hawk circa £36k) went to Japan and they might have an expensive ornament on their hands. As always, buyer beware.

Guy

red5
10-07-2019, 20:34
IMHO some companies have moved the game on so far that while the semantics between kit-car and component-car/recreation/whatever are fairly subtle the final product is almost aimed at a different audience and in time (perhaps even the near future) there will be a substantial shift from producing kits to producing turn-key cars. The latest fully speced Ultima RS is a £100/£110k pile of boxes or a £140/£150k turn-key car. I recon more folk will want the car than the kit. At £55k/£60k/£65k/£Head-in-the-sand£k I recon one of the Stratos companies must be about the same tipping point.


Totally agree. I'm sure for the manufacturer there is far more profit in turnkey cars than supplying kits + a lot less hassle. With a turnkey, the manufacturer is sat watching match of the day, drinking wine on a Saturday evening and not answering emails to idiots like me explaing how various parts fit together!

Griff
10-07-2019, 21:06
Comrade Chairman, the other thing to figure in to the driving experience; is the fact that you don't need to be doing a gazillion miles an hour to enjoy yourself, and the absence of driver 'aids' makes it so much more involving. As to values, the rise, it is probably reflective of the general increase in the classic car scene, and probably just as importantly the attention to detail that most self builds demonstrate now. For most of us, it will not make a blind bit of difference, because their is no intention to separate from the object of our attentions (unless we are talking about 'management'), but as she points out all she has to do is shout in the general direction of the automotive temple, to know where I am.

LOFT6.6
10-07-2019, 22:49
Well Norm, you certainly know how to grab attention!
Your musings are very welcome though and have generated some great debate already. I am still c13 months away from "C Day" - that's Chassis day and I am so much looking forward to the challenge of the build. Doing loads of grubby stuff with Donor engine at the moment, engine stripped to bare block and loads of cleaning, before starting rebuild.
Guys, thanks, great stuff coming out of Norms "rant" with the recent sales/prices having helped placate Mrs P with my proposed project.
Cheers!

LPH_UK
10-07-2019, 23:17
Norm I agree fully with your 'despair' relating to the way cars are going. For 'sports cars' manufacturers are focused on figures. Modern cars are insanely fast and full of gadgets and computers that means the average joe can claim they hit 0-60 in 4.5 secs and go it up to well over 160mph. A BMW 1 Series (M140) has performance that would put many a (possibly pre-2010) Ferrari and Lambo to shame.

What I find interesting is a spate of videos appearing on youtube.

The current cop of 'tubers are courted by the big brands and spend their days driving round in supercars supplied my manufacturers as they are seen as the new 'journalists'. They are spoiled and get to drive cars most people can only dream of driving. However an increasing number of them are doing videos in older cars and the interesting thing is how they rave about the involvement. Even they are starting to realise that you can't use the performance of modern cars on the road. They are starting to see the attraction of a simple car, with a manual box and no driver aids. They say you can enjoy the performance and use all of it. It's about having fun driving rather than being in a missile that will bend your mind with speed but is ultimately very clinical and detached.

But having said this people who like driving as an activity for fun are disappearing. Cars are now a utility that you pay for like gas/elec/internet/phone etc. They are functional items that allow you to be mobile. We have friends with 3 kids, all over 18 and none of them have passed their tests or show any interest in it. What was a rite of passage in my day now seems to be something that's not needed, especially if you live in a city.

As someone who has always been into cars it's all a bit depressing.....

Longtimefan
11-07-2019, 01:38
Ge Norman, you have definitely started something, most users online at any one time, on the 10th, 836, up from 500 odd which has stood for yonks before.

ProtoTipo
11-07-2019, 08:36
and the yellow Hawk at Total Headturners, both sold inthe mid 50’s, Nick’s (inpractically no time at all) to a car collector whose garage already contains a Miura and aMcLaren, and the Hawk taking a few months to sell, having been reduced from the initial £59K to £55K.

So Mick's old Spyder chassis 12V Alfa Transformer, or this?:
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/lotus/exige-s3/lotus-exige-sport-350-2017/9053430


and a couple of thousand pounds change.

renmure
11-07-2019, 09:38
But thereís a lot of folk out there, perhaps away from the budget kit car building crowd, who arenít really having to make a choice in the same way. So, itís not a case of a £55k Stratos replica OR an Exige, itís what Stratos replica to go alongside the Exige and probably the Range Rover Sport and Aston for the weekend.

The quality of of the latest ďkitsĒ mean that many folk are just looking to take money out the bank, safely turn it into a car and, whenever they fancy a change, turn it back into money. Sometimes a bit more money. The car is a commodity more than a build project. The gratification of owning it is an instant (perhaps short term) thing rather than a long term labour of love. IMHO of course.

ProtoTipo
11-07-2019, 09:47
Yep, the original Stratos enthusiast is definitely a dying breed.

How someone can desire ownership of a Stratos, whilst at the same time have eyes glazing over at the mention of the likes of Claudio Maglioli and Georgio Pianta is difficult for me to contemplate.
But I suppose time marches on, and that's where we are?

Ok, so maybe not dying, but getting older and outnumbered?

Normb666
11-07-2019, 11:22
Looks like this has inspired some lively debate as intended - some good points being made and opinions stated!

One of the things I was trying to bring out was what Chris J just said - the "old order" of Strat enthusiasts is being replaced, or maybe augmented, by a different type of person entirely. It's the sort of person who's into cars, has realised the Stratos is a classic and wants a piece of it, and also sees it as a bit of an "investment" in an exotic car at a cheap price point (compare to values of classics such as E types, Big Healeys, originals, etc.) They don't know anything about the kits themselves and all they see is the shiny Stratos shape, and assume they're all pretty much the same underneath. This is borne out be the similar prices fetched by the two cars I used as examples - Nick's immaculate, low-mileage, beautifully built LB and the yellow THT Hawk which was based on lots of used parts and, I believe, had a 164 12v motor? To us on here there should be an obvious price disparity, and normally there would be - I wasn't trying to say all Strat reps are now worth mid-50k's! But now you've got this new "breed" of buyers appearing, not having done their research, and just hand over the loot.
I personally find it hard to believe that anyone would enter a market like "ours" without doing some research, maybe coming on here, asking questions, etc. But hey, it's their money, their decision, and caveat emptor...

I still believe us on here, though, are a bit behind the curve regarding prices. The world's changed for cars that are "interesting" and "different". As Jim (renmure) said, there's a lot out there with no interest in building a car, and they want their desires satisfied NOW (maybe a bit of the moneyed individual who's used to getting their own way instantly, going on there?) - they'd probably even consider a yellow car with blue wheels :-P

If LB does at some point go turnkey-only, then I assume they'll have some sort of base spec and a price for that car, with a further list of priced options. That'll help stablise uncertainty over prices to some extent, if you know exactly what a new one costs, but that "I want it now!" will still inflate used prices if the waiting list for new is long... interesting times, methinks, but let's not worry too much, eh, cos "what it's worth" is only really important a) if you're buying one, and b) if you're selling yours...till then it's an ace, fun car that takes yonks to get from A to B cos you're too busy fighting off peeps with smartphones taking pics :)

P.S. who're these "Maglioli" and "Piano" guys???? (I jest, honest!)

Normb666
11-07-2019, 13:13
By the way, Robin - we've beaten 836 users today - gone up to 1400-odd this morning...not bad for a club with only 200-odd members! I suspect there's a faulty redirect from a popular porn site somewhere :) :)

Lancialulu
11-07-2019, 14:18
One of the things I was trying to bring out was what Chris J just said - the "old order" of Strat enthusiasts is being replaced, or maybe augmented, by a different type of person entirely. It's the sort of person who's into cars, has realised the Stratos is a classic and wants a piece of it,

I should point out that back in the late '80s kits were being professionally built by approved builders. For Example my "Shades" was built by Bob Pilot of Courtney Garages (at the time the only GH approved Transformer builder). I have eye waterying bills of over £30k spent then on the build, and that was around a Beta unit. The customer was involved in all the decisions and came away with and extremely well built Replica. Guy and or Gerry may know how many customer Transformers hit the market. My point is that there were those folk back then. I am one of those who wanted a finished article (not that I did not make it more finished), but I am not a "builder" SEC member but a "driver" SEC member and I suspect I am not alone....

Interestingly the customer of Shades did not own it for long and it went to an engineer who transplanted the 164V12 and uprated all the brakes and suspension units. I then bought it and fettled the upgrades and made some other improvements - now I just drive that. It is my favourite of my fleet.

Longtimefan
11-07-2019, 15:26
By the way, Robin - we've beaten 836 users today - gone up to 1400-odd this morning...not bad for a club with only 200-odd members! I suspect there's a faulty redirect from a popular porn site somewhere :) :)

Perhaps it could be something to do with phrase that has appeared in the thread (L of L) when Googled!!!!! Or it could be that Norm is trending?

Sando
11-07-2019, 15:55
Never thought I’d say it,......but even as one of the Oldskool, I would still have to think twice if someone with £50k+ burning a hole in their pocket wanted my Hawk now. As much I have loved (and still do love) and constantly keep it 100% reliable and used as it should be. Life moves on, there’s a lot you can do with that sort of money and still have change for something to have fun in/on/pilot.
..Dark thoughts! But you never know........Really didn’t think I’d ever say that!

Stableblock
11-07-2019, 16:02
All good stuff, makes me smile to think that the value of my car when I finally finish it (Paintshop booked for the start of Autumn now!) will approach the value of a proper one when I started to build it over 30 years ago!!

AndyGuyton
11-07-2019, 17:59
All good stuff, makes me smile to think that the value of my car when I finally finish it (Paintshop booked for the start of Autumn now!) will approach the value of a proper one when I started to build it over 30 years ago!!

Oooh....exciting stuff Peter. Looking forward to seeing that soon then. ;-)

Stableblock
11-07-2019, 19:09
yes should just be bolt the bits back on after that, cant possibly take another 30 years!

red5
11-07-2019, 19:14
So, itís not a case of a £55k Stratos replica OR an Exige, itís what Stratos replica to go alongside the Exige

Blimey Jim, have you been spying into my garage? Although I'm definitely in the OR camp not AND!

No point leaving the money in the bank doing nothing, picked it up last weekend:)

Bernard
11-07-2019, 19:54
Very Nice !

renmure
11-07-2019, 20:07
Superb!! I'm sure it will go like the clappers!!
:cool:

red5
11-07-2019, 20:40
Thanks.

Yes it is rather rapid, not that mad that it scares you, although I am still running it in!

Anyone currently building a LB with the same supercharged Toyota engine (Norm?) is in for some fun.

renmure
11-07-2019, 21:13
Thanks.

Yes it is rather rapid, not that mad that it scares you, although I am still running it in!

That goes back to Chairman Mao's other point tho. There's a real tipping point where you need all the high tec stuff switched on because there's more power than you can handle with all the gizmos turned off. I think Lotus have always been on the money in that regard. My Ultima is 650BHP and has no driver aids whatever. It's fab for pub talk but the reality on the road is that it's a prod of the accelerator away from being very scary indeed. An STR with 300ish or even up to 350 BHP sounds about right.

red5
11-07-2019, 21:53
That goes back to Chairman Mao's other point tho. There's a real tipping point where you need all the high tec stuff switched on because there's more power than you can handle with all the gizmos turned off. I think Lotus have always been on the money in that regard.

I wonder for how long, new Chinese investment and a desire to make the brand into something that can rival McLaren with all electric hyper car may change the Lotus ethos.

I do believe the current push by governments for the supposed 'green' electric vehicles will be upon us quicker than we think, where will that leave enthusiasts like us on this forum who enjoy tinkering with oily mechanical bits?

Current crop of electric vehicles only last around 10 years so perhaps by 2030 we'll be back in fashion!

Normb666
11-07-2019, 22:30
Very nice Nick....did you build it yourself? (Old Skool Lotus eh!) :)
Mate of mine's got one, bought it new 4 years ago - he'll be in it on the Northern Drive-Out in a few weeks. He loves it, and I came close to getting one, but it's too obviously related to my old S1 Elise I had yonks ago, and I can't help thinking of that when I'm in it!

Jim, your point regarding "too much power" is noted... but I like to think I have enough self-control (read: "fear") to be sure I'll be OK if the motor in my LB really does turn out to have 420bhp. I'm still piloting my ZZR1400 - 2 wheels, 593lb (269kg), over 200bhp. Never had it flat out or anywhere near the red line, never needed to - even 2-up and in top gear you only have to tweak the throttle and it pulls like a train. Amazing how following things, seen in the mirror, get so small, so fast...

My initial point about "nannying stuff" was more to do with blind spot monitoring, lane warning, etc. etc. that stops you having to think, rather than electronics that enable you to make the choice to dial it back a bit. Although I'm still not convinced by that either really...OK, I'm a Luddite. Anybody got any cotton looms they want smashing up??

renmure
11-07-2019, 22:44
Amazing how following things, seen in the mirror, get so small, so fast...

I remember a fine August evening 4 years ago smiling as I dispatched some sort of Volkswagen Golf on a twisty back road heading home In my Ultima and watching it get so small, so fast in the side mirrors. ..... Then watching it get bigger again through the side window, then the windscreen, then the other side window, then the windscreen again and then... well, I think I got a few more spins and lots of opportunities to see it catching up with me. My view of it ended up being ruined by the hedgerow and tree branches but the driver was good enough to stop and check I was ok. Nearly £48k insurance claim and only 9 months of rebuild down at the Factory later I was back on the road again. Don't think I've overtaken a Golf ever since :D

Griff
11-07-2019, 23:13
'I do believe the current push by governments for the supposed 'green' electric vehicles will be upon us quicker than we think, where will that leave enthusiasts like us on this forum who enjoy tinkering with oily mechanical bits?'

Nick, the difficulty is energy density, it only takes a couple of minutes to refuel a petrol/diesel vehicle and have a 300+ mile range, to do that in a electric car takes at least an hour, so your average service station can refuel 20+ cars per hour x number of pumps, whereas you can recharge 1 electric car per hour x number of charging stations. So the major drawback to journey times will be as the number of pure electric cars on the road increases. When you also consider that the UK does not have the electrical generating capacity (or plan to) to power all the stuff it already does + an all electric car population, its very easy to see that hybrid petrol/diesel/hydrogen - electric vehicles will be here for a significant time, for anybody doing long journeys outside an urban environment. So don't worry hydro-carbons are going to be around much longer than us!!

ProtoTipo
12-07-2019, 08:12
Never thought Iíd say it,......but even as one of the Oldskool, I would still have to think twice if someone with £50k+ burning a hole in their pocket wanted my Hawk now. As much I have loved (and still do love) and constantly keep it 100% reliable and used as it should be. Life moves on, thereís a lot you can do with that sort of money and still have change for something to have fun in/on/pilot.
..Dark thoughts! But you never know........Really didnít think Iíd ever say that!

Exactly. If I ever do get a Stratos on the road again, and the values are comparable to now, then I would have to immediately sell it. At £25k, I'd keep it, £40k to £50k, and it's goodbye Stratos.

ProtoTipo
12-07-2019, 08:16
So Mick's old Spyder chassis 12V Alfa Transformer, or this?:
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/lotus/exige-s3/lotus-exige-sport-350-2017/9053430

Nick's V6 Exige purchase, backs up this point I made earlier.

Darkspeed
12-07-2019, 20:27
Exactly. If I ever do get a Stratos on the road again, and the values are comparable to now, then I would have to immediately sell it. At £25k, I'd keep it, £40k to £50k, and it's goodbye Stratos.

Likewise - Then again as mine is a total bitsa kit being built by a "weirdo in a shabby shed" or more often outside a shabby shed - Getting it finished asap and looking out for a wannabee Stratosser with more money than sense seems like a reet good plan.

Normb666
12-07-2019, 21:47
They're deffo out there....along along with the truth, if you believe, apparently.

Paul Eustace
12-07-2019, 23:39
Have you good people seen the Business Insider 5th Avenue, New York, 1900 and 1913 photography? 1900 - horses everywhere and one car. 1913 - only cars.
My soon to be delivered Tesla will cover 350 miles on an overnight charge from home with power being delivery by offshore wind farms or my PV panels. It will charge at 1000mph at a Tesla Charger when I am on holiday somewhere. It will largely drive itself.
It will out drag pretty much every internal combustion engined car to 60 driven by my wife with the kids in the back and me asleep in the passenger seat! (4.1s 0-60).
My Stratos, running on carburettors and a single wire powering the electronic ignition hidden in the distributor, remains a sublime means of transport but the future for cars is electric.

Fingers
13-07-2019, 05:55
........the future for cars is electric.

I think so too, but I think purely electric on a large scale is some time away. Personally, I believe plug in hybrids will be more popular for some time, certainly down in this part of the world. Public transport in NZ is pretty poor when compared to most other countries, most people are very attached to their cars and commuting times are on the increase as a falsely inflated housing market keeps increasing, overdue for a crash.

Lunch table chat the other day turned to Tesla, the thinking was Elon may get out of cars and concentrate on supplying batteries to all the major car manufacturers.

Gordon Caro
13-07-2019, 09:28
Norm,

You seen to have set a trend with your 'rant'; see what Andy Palmer CEO of Aston Martin has to say.https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/aston-martin-boss-brexit-strategy-laughable-ev-policy-non-sensical-idea-full

Gordon

Griff
13-07-2019, 09:46
Paul,
All your comments about the performance/range of your soon to be delivered Tesla are really valid, but you miss the essential point: (info from Tesla)

How long does it take to charge a Tesla Model 3 at home?<O:p></O:p>
Level 3 Superchargers can take a Tesla from 0-170 miles range in just 30 minutes. It can get to 80% full in just 40 minutes.<O:p></O:p>
How long does it take to charge a Tesla Model 3 on a supercharger?<O:p></O:p>
They take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100% on the original 85 kWh Model S.

which brings me back to the point, the difficulty is energy density, it only takes a couple of minutes to refuel a petrol/diesel vehicle and have a 300+ mile range, to do that in a electric car takes at least an hour, so your average service station can refuel 20+ cars per hour x number of pumps, whereas you can recharge 1 electric car per hour x number of charging stations. So the major drawback to journey times will be as the number of pure electric cars on the road increases. What happens when you arrive at your charging point, and you are fourth in the queue to use it?

It is for that reason that Fingers and I are in agreement, Phevs' (Petrol hybrid electric vehicle) are the immediate future, the current infrastructure, when combined with the range of current EV's, will not allow or support the immediate and wholesale transfer from hydrocarbon to purely electric propulsion. When I say infrastructure, I also am including the UK electrical generating capacity, We don't as a country generate enough electricity to power all the vehicles on UK roads if they are solely electrically powered.
Once the range for the average EV is beyond 400miles, then a EV will be a viable choice in a rural environment, and allow the vast majority of long journeys without stop. To visit friends and family in either Cornwall or The Lake District from here is 330 miles, I can just about manage it in a hydrocarbon car, and a fuel stop if required takes a matter of minutes. In a Tesla I could get to about 300 miles, an then need a recharge, I can't getter anywhere near that in my Nissan Leaf/VW Golf e, and will need to make at least two intermediate stops of an hour plus (assuming I'm not fourth in the queue-otherwise it'll be longer) for the same journey.

With a Phev, you use the current highly developed and available infrastructure, energy density is very high, it takes a very short time to refuel, and you get most of the environmental advantages to boot. I should add that during the 2012 London Olympics I had the opportunity to drive home in both experimental BMW 3 series and a Mini electric vehicles (55 mile round trip) leaving the Olympic site with a full charge, in summer daylight and fine weather, it was touch and go whether I got back to the site the following morning, to the extent that I turned the air-con and radio off to save electricity. Which illustrates how quickly things have improved around battery technology/energy density, and the consequent improvement in potential range.

john
13-07-2019, 12:58
From observations at motorway services and particularly with regard to Tesla I would suggest that Tesla are ahead of the game in provision of charging points to the number of cars on the road. From what I've seen you would never have to queue to charge up. If the number of cars on the road increase they would add further charging points.
On a 300 mile journey you should be stopping for rest breaks equivalent to any necessary charging time ( CPC training) no matter what vehicle you are driving HGV or not.

Paul
13-07-2019, 16:17
On a 300 mile journey you should be stopping for rest breaks equivalent to any necessary charging time ( CPC training) no matter what vehicle you are driving HGV or not.

That's actually a very good point that I haven't heard articulated before

ChrisCar6
15-07-2019, 18:34
The other option which I have not heard discussed is battery swapping - stop at service station, take out flat ones and exchange for charged ones. Swap over time akin to hydrocarbon fuelling. It requires cars to be designed for mutually compatible battery styles (Think AAAs, not phone charger plugs). Going back to the days of fresh horses at the coaching inn!

And up here the demand of lights/heating/windscreen wipers etc will give vastly reduced range compared with SoCal. We're just getting used to heated seats/windscreens/steering wheels and now we'll only be able to use them in our own street.

Normb666
15-07-2019, 20:49
Dunno how long it'd take to swap out a battery pack, but it's still not going to be as fast as chucking 10 gallons in - you won't be able to do it yourself unless you have the strength of the Hulk, so it'll be waiting till Torchy the Battery Boy (showing my age there...) becomes available with his modified forklift to lift the old ones out and the new ones in. And that's assuming they've got a fully-charged set available, which might not be the case if it's a Bank Holiday/start of school hols and they've had lots of customers...

Nope, still not convinced by the "electric revolution" yet. Not saying it won't get there, but it's a good way off still, I reckon.

ChrisCar6
15-07-2019, 21:01
That's true Norm, but the point is 'they' have to make it a viable alternative to petrol/diesel, so the cars would have to be designed for quick battery pack changes and the infrastructure to supply them invented. You pay an annual subscription to EverReady to lease a battery pack plus 200 battery changes a year or whatever, they have a network of 'filling stations' on the road network, and you just rock up and say "fill her up guv"; the Duracell rabbits whip the flat one out and slot in a full one. Likely to take 5 minutes to do and you're back on the road. An hour or two later they have that battery recharged ready to punt out again. Bugger that sit-around-while-the-charger-does-its-stuff malarkey.

ProtoTipo
16-07-2019, 09:04
Excellent thread. Excellent viewpoints.

John,
Your PM inbox is full.
I've sent you an email.

LPH_UK
16-07-2019, 09:54
That's true Norm, but the point is 'they' have to make it a viable alternative to petrol/diesel, so the cars would have to be designed for quick battery pack changes and the infrastructure to supply them invented. You pay an annual subscription to EverReady to lease a battery pack plus 200 battery changes a year or whatever, they have a network of 'filling stations' on the road network, and you just rock up and say "fill her up guv"; the Duracell rabbits whip the flat one out and slot in a full one. Likely to take 5 minutes to do and you're back on the road. An hour or two later they have that battery recharged ready to punt out again. Bugger that sit-around-while-the-charger-does-its-stuff malarkey.

A lot of the issue is around people's expectations. Because we are used to filling a car from empty to full in 5 mins and that can give you up to 800 miles in some cars that's what we use as the benchmark for EVs. Eventually you will have a generation of people who have only ever had EVs, if it takes 30 mins to charge then they will used to that and accept it as part of the car owning (well leasing) experience.

ChrisCar6
16-07-2019, 10:40
A lot of the issue is around people's expectations. Because we are used to filling a car from empty to full in 5 mins and that can give you up to 800 miles in some cars that's what we use as the benchmark for EVs. Eventually you will have a generation of people who have only ever had EVs, if it takes 30 mins to charge then they will used to that and accept it as part of the car owning (well leasing) experience.

It'll have a drastic effect on work travel. Time is money.

Normb666
16-07-2019, 13:21
What us on 'ere want to know is, what effect it'll all have on prices of Stratos reps. :)

Guy Mayers
16-07-2019, 14:24
What us on 'ere want to know is, what effect it'll all have on prices of Stratos reps. :)

What it means Norm, is that we'll be able to "charge" a fortune for them.

Normb666
16-07-2019, 15:29
Well that's something "positive" anyway...an improvement on "current" values. OK, I'm off ohm....

Griff
16-07-2019, 22:44
Norm, ever fort of being an orfer? quite the Volt-air:rolleyes:

ChrisCar6
16-07-2019, 23:31
Norm, ever fort of being an orfer? quite the Volt-air:rolleyes:

He hasn't the capacity. which is why he puts up a resistance.

Normb666
17-07-2019, 07:54
So now we're alternating between various electricity jokes... the way it's going I reckon we'll be at it till a week on Faraday

ChrisCar6
17-07-2019, 11:38
Somebody'll get charged.

Normb666
17-07-2019, 13:41
...probably with battery, if this carries on much longer - and then they'll get banged up in one of those Faraday Cages. That'll be a shock to 'em.

ChrisCar6
17-07-2019, 14:41
This is my terminal comment on the subject, you'll be pleased to know.

john
17-07-2019, 17:52
I'm already looking forward to Chairman's Rant August 2019.

Griff
17-07-2019, 20:03
OhmmMG!!!!

Guy Mayers
17-07-2019, 21:28
I'm sorry but the thread is turning a little negative.

renmure
17-07-2019, 22:47
I think this current rant has run its course.

Kenny m
17-07-2019, 23:16
Is it really coming to an end I'm shocked

Griff
17-07-2019, 23:38
No, I'm thinking it might only be static for a short while

Guy Mayers
18-07-2019, 00:04
I've never known a thread to generate so many replies so fast? Who was that bright spark that started it all?

GerryA
18-07-2019, 00:23
Watt is going on here?
Is this part of Norm's inductance into his new role as Chairman?

Stableblock
18-07-2019, 07:39
We have endless capacity for this sort of thing

Stableblock
18-07-2019, 07:40
Its starting to Hertz

Griff
18-07-2019, 15:52
In my role as Dep. Chair, I feel I have to put up some resistance, and insulate the rest of the membership