Allora corse hawk LB

[Martin0074]

Can I ask what the difference between the allora corse hawk Lb kit if any

[Guy Mayers]

All of them are different under the skin, and there are also differences in the skin of almost every variant...

You're unlikely to find an Allora now, there were only 13 or 14 made and distinguished by the slightly pointy nose.

The Transformer and Hawks are made by Gerry and have changed very little over the years. Mainly one chassis member and double suspension pick up points.

I'll let someone more knowledgable come along to give you the low-down on the Litton/Corse/Napiersport cars which have completely different chassis to the Hawks and LB cars.

Come down to Stoneleigh - that's the place you'll see the differences!

Guy

[Normb666]

Bloody L, where to start....

OK. In the beginning (1986) two Stratos rep kits came out. One was the Transformer, the other was the Allora. The Transformer was a more faithful copy of the original while the Allora, although also taking its body moulds from a genuine car, was more of a homage than trying to be a faithful copy. The Allora sold 14 cars before the company went under, and it was bought by Steve Greenwood who renamed it Litton Cars, and the cars themselves became the Corse, with a totally redesigned chassis. The Transformer, meanwhile, was doing very well with those who wanted to replicate a Stratos as closely as possible.
Anyway, time passed and Transformer became Hawk (same cars and people, just a name change) and Steve G sold the Litton project to Hugh Carson, who carried on with the Corse, but the company was now CAE. Eventually Hugh sold up and the firm became Napiersport, in about 2004.
Fast forward to 2010-11 and Craig White started ListerBell with a completely new take on a Strat rep. Although influenced to a degree by the Corse, there was a whole new chassis and body moulds made to a very high standard, with bespoke suspension and many other parts. The aim was to create a Stratos for the new century using modern components, a sort of "restomod" approach (but obviously not using an original car as a base). This idea seems to have struck a chord with lots of people - previously folk were more interested in making an exact a copy of an original car, but these days there's room for both camps. And all this time, Hawk have continued to make their cars, with a few mods here and there as time went by.
In the last few years Stratos reps have come to be sought after by serious collectors, with the result that prices have shot up. All of them are (or can be) worthy cars, but the quality of the build is everything. You really need to try and see examples of each of them if you can, and you'll have your own ideas about what sort of car you want to build. If it's a close replica you want you'll be looking at a Hawk, but it's a kit from the 80s so not the easiest thing to build. If faithfulness isn't that important then it'll be the others, but remember that none of them, hawk included, are true copies - they all use a steel spaceframe chassis with glassfibre bodies, where an original had a steel centre tub. Although saying that, Hawk have just brought out that very thing, if you're suitably minted...

There's a lot more to be said about all these cars, but this'll be enough to get you started. Try and get along to a garage day that some members occasionally hold - there are always several cars at them - or even the club AGM at Stoneleigh. They're a great place to meet people and get inside info , and also to realise what sad bastards we all are :) Meanwhile, I'm sure others will chip in with more details.

[renmure]

Lots of interesting stuff

A follow-up question from me...

If I'm looking at general photos (cars on show, cars at a meet etc) are there some easy things to see or to look for which could clearly help identify a Hawk from an LB from an other? It's only recently that I discovered that the originals had fuel filler caps on either side so that helps me there... if I can see them.

[Guy Mayers]

A follow-up question from me...

If I'm looking at general photos (cars on show, cars at a meet etc) are there some easy things to see or to look for which could clearly help identify a Hawk from an LB from an other? It's only recently that I discovered that the originals had fuel filler caps on either side so that helps me there... if I can see them.

STONELIGH - There'll be Hawks. LB's and (possibly) Corse and Allora there too. Just look and learn! Too many differences to list and, even after all these years i struggle to know if it's a Corse or a Napiersport....

[renmure]

STONELIGH - There'll be Hawks. LB's and (possibly) Corse and Allora there too. Just look and learn! Too many differences to list

Yup, I’ve been, often, and am still none the wiser hence the question and needing to do an 800 mile round trip to a once a year event is a pretty inefficient way to learn methinks.

[ProtoTipo]

I need to get a little bit less than a mile away, to tell which is which.

[Stratie.fr]

In the last twelve years I owned a Napiersport Corse a Hawk HF 3000 and now a LB kit under construction…there are actually a lot of differences between them!

Only the Hawk has got both fuel tank and filler like the original car (think it’s optionnal on LB with Toyota engine only if not wrong)
Corse has a different tubular chassis than original one but the inner cockpit is more spacious than original car and the Hawk ( a trouble for tall driver more 6’ like me!!)
the Hawk has floor lowered ( you can see easily on the Hawk sides the lower floor under the chassis not on the others!)
LB is a little bit heavier than other ones but is built with modern parts like brake suspension ….

[Guy Mayers]

Actually, at the end of the day any of the differences are pretty irrelevant. All of them drive and handle well beyond our abilities when used on public roads. They're all similar to look at underneath paint schemes and it's what brings a group like this together. We all love the Stratos!

[ProtoTipo]

All types of Stratos replica have the potential to be finished to a high standard.
Given how few come up for sale, you'd probably have to grab whatever came up for sale first. In any case, you need lots of patience.

In the last couple of years, these cars and kits have come up for sale:
May 2019 - Lister Bell STR, finished car £54,000 (I think that was the asking price, and the goal posts on completed and registered cars have probably moved since?)
September 2020 - Transformer (Hawk) HF registered properly, but needed finishing and painting £19,099
June 2021 - Litton Corse, asking £23,000

Have there been any more recently?

[Guy Mayers]

Have there been any more recently?

Shades - a Transformer HF3000 - is currently for sale in France for €95,000. Plus side is that it's EU registered, downside it's RHD in a LHD market.

Frederic has bought and sold a few over the last couple of years? That information is his business so if he wants to disclose the prices paid I'd let him do so.

Phil Dolby has sold a couple of cars, Chris & Jane Smiths has gone to France too. I'm sure there are others.

I've been offered what I would have previously considered silly money for my car with one particularly insistent person at Race Retro returning to the stand several times to see if I'd changed my mind. However I'm still of the opinion that it will only be for sale when I'm no longer fit to drive it. Being LHD/properly registered/over 30 years old may account for the offers.

The market continues to change I think. With demand out stripping supply by a fair margin anyone willing to sell does so in the knowledge that they can't replace their car like for like very easily. The value of these cars is also dependant on the buyers ability to get them legally registered in their country of choice otherwise it's just something to use on track days or stare at in the living room. That's where we all keep them isn't it? Or is that what we call the Garage these days?

[Normb666]

Can't remember the date but think it was mid-2020 - Gordon Caro's immaculate ListerBell, 3.0 Alfa power, 2k miles, asking a lot more than £54K, sold in next to no time. Told him it was too cheap... prices will be up since then, due to currently-closed order book. Only way to get one is to buy used!

Guy, yours will be expensive due to its provenance. Any car of yours that's survived 30 years is a miracle :) :)

[Martin0074]

I recently priced up a new kit apparently I had specified a high spec but it was all parts you needed to complete the build factor in another 10k for additional bits ie donor paint vat etc and you have spent north of 50k and you still have to put it together I could not justify that so have decided on a used kit/car. It would be nice to build new but i felt I needed to be realistic.

[Darkspeed]

A follow-up question from me...

If I'm looking at general photos (cars on show, cars at a meet etc) are there some easy things to see or to look for which could clearly help identify a Hawk from an LB from an other? It's only recently that I discovered that the originals had fuel filler caps on either side so that helps me there... if I can see them.


Hawk is the easiest to identify from an original or an LB - just look for a large block step under the sill about 40mm deep - That will tell you its a Hawk .

LB - its actually slightly harder to tell from an original - but the most straight forward way is to look for the lack of a vertical line in the sill at the back of the door. LB also has crisper cleaner lines

An original - Non block under the sill - vertical line in the sill at the back of the door.

And LHD - RHD naturally

Allora - The body line in the nose is not aligned with the rest of the body line - they have a slight droop snoot

Corse - Very flat profile to the roof spoiler

[ProtoTipo]

The next one that comes up for sale will probably set a new bench mark.
You'll probably think the Hawk at the bottom of the garden was cheap.

[Darkspeed]

The next one that comes up for sale will probably set a new bench mark.
You'll probably think the Hawk at the bottom of the garden was cheap.

Yep - I continue to sit on my pile of parts wondering what the smart thing to do is - I have been approached a couple of times but as I have no need to sell and the market still strong and rising - I will just sit tight - plan being this year to actually progress with putting it back together. Should that plan fail then I will probably sell it and buy a G4.

The Scottish Corse price surprised the heck out of me never mind the garden Hawk

[Darkspeed]

All types of Stratos replica have the potential to be finished to a high standard.
Given how few come up for sale, you'd probably have to grab whatever came up for sale first. In any case, you need lots of patience.

In the last couple of years, these cars and kits have come up for sale:
May 2019 - Lister Bell STR, finished car £54,000 (I think that was the asking price, and the goal posts on completed and registered cars have probably moved since?)
September 2020 - Transformer (Hawk) HF registered properly, but needed finishing and painting £19,099
June 2021 - Litton Corse, asking £23,000

Have there been any more recently?

https://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/5170-LB-STR-Stradale December 2019 - £67K and sold pretty quickly IIRC

The ebay Corse - is that the one that went to the Wrexham outfit for building ? March 2016 - was about £14K I think




I would think that an incomplete registered kit would be £30K plus now depending on the specification - there are plenty of us about who should know ;)

[Normb666]

Well, it's like we were saying at the time. Strat prices - for ANY Strat - have risen so there are no "cheap" ones any more. Unless you find someone selling who's been living in a cave for the last 5 years, cut off from contact with humanity... Martin, as you've discovered, a full kit ain't cheap. Except till you look at what else you could have new for that sort of money that's vaguely exotic.

[Martin0074]

30k for an incomplete but registered kit would be fine I think, I would much rather back track and rebuild to my spec

[Strat Fan]

All types of Stratos replica have the potential to be finished to a high standard.
Given how few come up for sale, you'd probably have to grab whatever came up for sale first. In any case, you need lots of patience.

Have there been any more recently?
The obvious one would be the ex RC Pirelli Hawk which was for sale anywhere between £69,995 and £109,995 depending which day of the week it was and which way the wind was blowing.
I'm pretty sure it is now abroad so that would indicate it sold. I do know what the sale figure was though.

[Normb666]

For the avoidance of any confusion, "ex RC" doesn't mean it used to be radio controlled - RC is a current club member who's had a few Strats including the one mentioned, and currently owns a nice ListerBell :)
It wasn't him who was selling in this case but a dealer who chopped and changed the price depending on his mood....Jekyll and Hyde Motors, I think they were...

[Darkspeed]

30k for an incomplete but registered kit would be fine I think, I would much rather back track and rebuild to my spec

Videos are still up on Youtube of what £23K may have bought you a year ago - don't think it was registered though but came with the Donor Beta V5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RErvnzWXsw

Grabbing the first one you see - yes well ...ahem there are good an bad points about doing that - Still glad I did though and that Craig was there to support when the size of the can of worms I had opened became apparent.

[renmure]

Hawk is the easiest to identify from an original or an LB - just look for a large block step under the sill about 40mm deep - That will tell you its a Hawk .

LB - its actually slightly harder to tell from an original - but the most straight forward way is to look for the lack of a vertical line in the sill at the back of the door. LB also has crisper cleaner lines

An original - Non block under the sill - vertical line in the sill at the back of the door.

And LHD - RHD naturally

Allora - The body line in the nose is not aligned with the rest of the body line - they have a slight droop snoot

Corse - Very flat profile to the roof spoiler

Thanks, that's helpful.
I'll head off and look at some pics to test my new spotting skillz :cool:

[ProtoTipo]

Thanks, that's helpful.
I'll head off and look at some pics to test my new spotting skillz :cool:

To date, Hawk/Transformer front louvre slots are shorter, but the whole assembly is in 4 individual alloy parts.

[john]

There were a couple of myths about Corse bodywork.
The flat roof spoiler which Andrew mentions was only as a result of laziness on assembling the two half's. Upper and lower. I made an acceptably curved spoiler from the same moulds while they were in my charge.
The other myth was about the concave roof shape which again was only on some cars when the centre section mould had been stored with something on top of it prior to use. The mould was flexible! If you turned it upside down and put a bag of sand inside it popped back to the correct shape.
There were two sets of Corse moulds. The original ones, some of which appeared to be of Allora vintage, and a further set produced by an outfit in Oxfordshire. That second set had supposedly been refined, but the moulds were as floppy as a very floppy thing, and coupled with some very resin rich thick laying up the panel quality (Napiersport) was very hit and miss.
The original moulds still exist and are in private ownership. The second set were sold to France and are probably best forgotten about.
The LB panels are light years ahead of Corse/Allora stuff.

[Stratie.fr]

Frederic has bought and sold a few over the last couple of years? That information is his business so if he wants to disclose the prices paid I'd let him do so.
?


The Corse S has been sold in 2017 around £40k (after LHD conversion and restoration in Alitalia gr 4)
The blue chardonnet Hawk was sold in 2020 around £90k (after LHD conversion rally prep with a spare engine NOS…) :cool:

[ChrisCar6]

Thanks, that's helpful.
I'll head off and look at some pics to test my new spotting skillz :cool:

Corse family have very shallow offset front wheels c/w Hawk/LB.

Maybe we should see what we can assemble at the Scottish Italian Car Day Jim?

[ProtoTipo]

The flat roof spoiler which Andrew mentions was only as a result of laziness on assembling the two half's. Upper and lower. I made an acceptably curved spoiler from the same moulds while they were in my charge.

Flat roof spoilers are not an uncommon sight on the original Lancia Stratos.

Here's some:

[john]

Cripes! Who knew!?
One look at that white car and I would say "replica".

[ProtoTipo]

One look at that white car and I would say "replica".

I wondered too John, but there's some more photos of it, and it's definitely a real one.

[renmure]

I wondered too John, but there's some more photos of it, and it's definitely a real one.
I’m still on the fence. I can only see one fuel cap thing :p

[Guy Mayers]

Looking at the back of a car you can tell it's a LB because the louvre panel has three supports between each slat. Transformer/Hawk/Lancia only have two. Not sure about the Corse/Allora/Napiersport versions though a quick trawl of photographs would help..

Guy

[ProtoTipo]

I’m still on the fence. I can only see one fuel cap thing :p

ATE 2 pot calipers:

[ProtoTipo]

Looking at the back of a car you can tell it's a LB because the louvre panel has three supports between each slat. Guy

'Never noticed that Guy.
Anti sagg?

[Darkspeed]

Ducted bonnet option on The LB

[Guy Mayers]

'Never noticed that Guy.
Anti sagg?

Possibly? But the sag is caused by the louvre panel being pushed tight into the aperture on the rear clam. If it's installed with a little tension, rather than compression, it shouldn't warp.

[hollytree]

My Corse I, the fuel filler is in the B post.
I think all other types are "via" the rear clam
I have adjusted the door since then so the seam lines up!
19221

[Strat Fan]

'Never noticed that Guy.
Anti sagg?
It's something that got passed down from the Allora, Corse' are similar.
I think it does help for the anti sag, yes and I can't speak for the others but the louvre is not pushed in tight to the aperture so this doesn't cause the sag.
The air pushing down on the louvre from the rear spoiler is what causes the sag in the case of the LB which is why they have a support bracket between the canopy and the lower louvre.
Without this bracket when travelling at speed the louvre can be pushed down & touch the rear canopy.
19222

[Normb666]

Something else you can add on when listing the spec of your car: "3.2 GTA...ITBs....4-pots all round...Nitrons....anti-sag...." ...although some may think you've started listing family members when you get onto that last one.

[Strat Fan]

Something else you can add on when listing the spec of your car: "3.2 GTA...ITBs....4-pots all round...Nitrons....anti-sag...." ...although some may think you've started listing family members when you get onto that last one.
Given the average age of Stratos replica builders "anti sag" maybe a relevant addition to the options list.....

[Picasso]

Thanks Craig,
None taken.

Paul.

[renmure]

Given the average age of Stratos replica builders "anti sag" maybe a relevant addition to the options list.....


Pffft!!

I don't need to tune into the internet to be insulted about getting older.
I've got carers at home who can do that.