Hello all

[Rogue Leader]

Hi, new guy here. Posted in the Stratos forum already not noticing this section though my post there hasn't been approved yet. Mulling building a Hawk kit, though I'm finding that it could take a lot of time and work just to obtain!

[Guy Mayers]

Welcome to the madhouse! The route into ownership is indeed a long one these days. Gerry emailed me last night to say that an order has been placed from Ireland and has been quoted at 30-36 months for delivery. Keeping an eye on classified ads and listings here is your most likely route to getting behind the wheel of a Stratos replica but Left Hand Drive ones aren't common, the majority being built in RHD in the UK. Please also explore the how registration in your state works and import of a fully built car into the USA. There are a few in the USA but they rarely come on the market. There is a completed LB in Norway at the moment that was for sale, I don't know it's still available. Other than that, it's a case of paying a deposit to Hawk to get onto the build list and patience.
Guy

[Kenny m]

Hawk currently have a waiting time of 30-36 months so are quite busy if you intend going down this route you are better to get your deposit sorted sooner than later as lead times will only extend alternatively second hand cars do come up for sale from time to time but I dont know what the implications of importing a second hand car to the states are.

[Rogue Leader]

30-36 months is better than what LB told me which was 5 years! Also they plan on only sending completed minus drivetrain cars to the US at this point. I very much want to build it myself.

An ideal situation for me would be to find someone's abandoned project they already started. Obviously thats a rare situation for an already rare car. While I prefer LHD, RHD is fine, and kit cars in NY are pretty much free game which is good so for example if I found someones half finished kit in England, it would be no big deal to finish and road register here.

My main problem with Hawk is I have emailed them a few times and never gotten an answer, maybe I have the wrong address or what but I just wanted to get a price for what I'm getting into, and wanted to find out how long it would take. Have not been able to get a response after emailing them a couple times in the past year. I have an Alfa 164 I am restoring, currently rebuilding the engine (~300hp), but the car TBH is gonna need a LOT of rust work so I'm considering bailing on that project, stripping off what I need for the Stratos, and going from there.

[Kenny m]

The email address for Hawk is gerry@hawkcars.co.uk LB are very busy at the moment with full order books but Craig will have confirmed to you on waiting times. Unfinished projects to come up from time to time and one was sold recently by a person on here however you may wait a while for one to come up.

[Rogue Leader]

The email address for Hawk is gerry@hawkcars.co.uk LB are very busy at the moment with full order books but Craig will have confirmed to you on waiting times. Unfinished projects to come up from time to time and one was sold recently by a person on here however you may wait a while for one to come up.

Super helpful, thank you so much!

[Longtimefan]

Hi, Tom, welcome to the club forum. Guy & Kenney have given you the info on kit waiting times and good advise on the possibility of cars becoming available and being shown on here.

However you may find that being a full member rather than a free user has its advantages, as it will give you access to the full forum which includes many build streams for both Hawk and LB which give much information and tips on the assembly of cars from these kits. It, I am sure, would be very helpful with your proposed use of the 164 components as many constructors have detailed their experiences with this donor vehicle.

Full membership of the Club is very reasonable with a small annual membership fee that is about 0.50 GBP a week, and gives access to all aspects of the forum.

Robin.

[Rogue Leader]

Thanks Robin, I will do that.

I made contact with Gerry this morning. The kit is extremely reasonably priced, I honestly assumed it cost much more. He advised 36 months.

However sadly he had to follow up his email with another to advise his fabricator asked that he hold the order book. So at this time they are not accepting new orders.

:(

[Normb666]

Well that's a bummer - that means you can't order a Stratos kit at the moment. Good news for those with a car to sell, not so much for you, Tom.
Can I suggest that if you're so keen to build a car, you consider buying a completed car, dismantling it, and building it up all over again?.....no? Wouldn't fancy doing that meself either.....! ;) :)

[Rogue Leader]

Well that's a bummer - that means you can't order a Stratos kit at the moment. Good news for those with a car to sell, not so much for you, Tom.
Can I suggest that if you're so keen to build a car, you consider buying a completed car, dismantling it, and building it up all over again?.....no? Wouldn't fancy doing that meself either.....! ;) :)

:p

Yeah part of me is thinking this is a sign that I should just stick to my not even half finished 164 restoration. But I have heard that half finished (or barely started) kits do show up for sale from time to time. Now the matter of getting it from its likely location (UK) to me in the states is another challenge. Definitely discouraging situation.

As for taking one apart and putting it back together, I have done that, but not with a Stratos lol. I have a race car, MK3 VW Golf that I took down to basically the doors, hatch, and hood being the only parts still attached. I'd rather start with something new this time around!

[Normb666]

You never know, you might come across a part-built kit if you keep looking - it does happen! Fingers etc. crossed....

[hollytree]

There is a man in Hebden Bridge who I saw last summer who says he still wants to sell his race prepped Corse I that has not run for a number of years.

Take a look at post #13
https://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/6185-Corse-I-part-built-project-for-Sale/page2?highlight=hebden

[Rogue Leader]

You never know, you might come across a part-built kit if you keep looking - it does happen! Fingers etc. crossed....

I'm going to create an account and start looking. I mean at this point if I find something in 3 years or less I'm ahead of the game!

[Rogue Leader]

There is a man in Hebden Bridge who I saw last summer who says he still wants to sell his race prepped Corse I that has not run for a number of years.

Take a look at post #13
https://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/6185-Corse-I-part-built-project-for-Sale/page2?highlight=hebden

Thank you, I'd rather get something set up for the Alfa engine, I have a lot of experience with it and I'd imagine getting parts for that engine here in the states to be troublesome at a minimum. Out of curiosity do you know what he was asking?

[Longtimefan]

Well done Tom, see you now are a fully paid up member, proper welcome to the organisation. You could be online for a long time looking through the Super Strings.

Robin

[hollytree]

Thank you, I'd rather get something set up for the Alfa engine, I have a lot of experience with it and I'd imagine getting parts for that engine here in the states to be troublesome at a minimum. Out of curiosity do you know what he was asking?

I went and saw it after him telling me at Hebden Bridge show he was going to sell it.
He showed me the car and the engine plus spare standard engine and gearbox.
Showed me spare panel molds, suspension spacers for different setups (gravel or tarmac), spare wheels etc etc.
Spent an hour or so on all this.
I then said "so how much". His answer was "I will put it back together for road use and then get Craig to sell it for me". On the basis the tuned engine and sequential box is too much for normal use.
I said "I will take it off you as it sits" and he was going to think and call
That was 5 months ago and not a peep.

[Rogue Leader]

I went and saw it after him telling me at Hebden Bridge show he was going to sell it.
He showed me the car and the engine plus spare standard engine and gearbox.
Showed me spare panel molds, suspension spacers for different setups (gravel or tarmac), spare wheels etc etc.
Spent an hour or so on all this.
I then said "so how much". His answer was "I will put it back together for road use and then get Craig to sell it for me". On the basis the tuned engine and sequential box is too much for normal use.
I said "I will take it off you as it sits" and he was going to think and call
That was 5 months ago and not a peep.

Hmm, sounds like someone who maybe changed their mind. For me I'm looking to build a road car, so it sounds like too much for me, unless it was a killer deal. Sounds like that is an unknown at best.

[john]

Steve doesn't do anything quickly.
He invested a lot of thought time and money into that car.
I realize that the biggest appeal for Stratos replica buyers is a nice road going example to trail around the shows or even just go off for the weekend, but that car was built for competition and its MSA logbook was hard won.
It would be a real shame for it not to be used in competition again.

[Rogue Leader]

Steve doesn't do anything quickly.
He invested a lot of thought time and money into that car.
I realize that the biggest appeal for Stratos replica buyers is a nice road going example to trail around the shows or even just go off for the weekend, but that car was built for competition and its MSA logbook was hard won.
It would be a real shame for it not to be used in competition again.

I agree I wouldn't want to do that to a provenanced race car unless it was just totally stripped down and I was buying a bucket of parts and a frame. Don't get me wrong I will drive the wheels off mine, but on the road and maybe for a track day. No intention of rally or any sort of real competition. I already have a race car I am way too neck deep into to let it sit for another.

[hollytree]

The guy i was with wanted a car he could just get in and drive, If I could have sorted a deal where he bought mine and I took the Hebden Bridge car and bits (with maybe me paying some money but taking all the risk), I think I would have done it. But the conversation just stopped.

[Rogue Leader]

Has it always been like this.... as in a very long wait for a kit, or is this more of a COVID, supply chain, late 70's-early 00's cars skyrocketing in demand, thing that is happening?

I'm assuming especially in the LB case where they seem to be moving complete cars mostly, its the latter quite a bit.

[Guy Mayers]

No, when I bought my kit it was about a 3 month wait back in 1988. I still have it! I think there is something about the Covid comment, prior to that order books were good and LB & Hawk were taking orders. Then nobody was spending cash for a couple of years on holidays, working from home and saving cash. Plus the manufacturers were struggling because of the isolation rules. Next is the SVA/IVA effect weeding out some of the poorer quality kits out there reducing choices to the better designed/made kits, some good publicity, people actually realising how good these cars can be on the road and everything just came to a head.

I think Gerry is talking to his chassis builder to sort out supply. Gerry owns the jigs. His builder makes both the Cobra and Stratos lines so there may be an opportunity to find a second fabricator. In the meantime, he'll still be taking orders for the "tin cars" but they're another league in terms of cost. Watch this space for developments

Guy

[Rogue Leader]

Ok great, will do that. At this point all I can do is look around a bit and wait.

[Strat Fan]

Has it always been like this.... as in a very long wait for a kit, or is this more of a COVID, supply chain, late 70's-early 00's cars skyrocketing in demand, thing that is happening?

I'm assuming especially in the LB case where they seem to be moving complete cars mostly, its the latter quite a bit.
Speaking on behalf of LB then it is a combination of all of the above.
The LB order list had got rather long before Covid ever came along and staff levels had also been increased accordingly to help cope with demand.
Then Covid came along and staff were put on furlough etc which clearly didn't help production.
Upon the return to work then half the staff then decided that they preferred to be paid to sit at home and do nothing and didn't actually need to work so that among with a few other staff scenarios halved the staff levels instantly.
New staff after covid were then hard to find partly because of our geographic location but also because no one wanted to actually work anymore. This seems to be a fairly common theme when you talk to other companies as well.
With less staff and still a significant order book, the new found supply chain issues & then Brexit thrown in to the mix as well has to have a negative affect on how things operate.
LB have always offered in house builds and because of some of the press received over the years then there has always been a strong demand for turn key or turn key minus projects, maybe from markets where kits aren't a familiar thing.
In reality some of the orders being processed currently are actually still kit based but the majority are now turn key or turn key minus.
There are arguments either way but because of the comprehensive nature of the LB kit mated to the supply chain issues brought about by Covid and Brexit then the parts availability for inhouse builds is currently more controllable than it is for kit supply. A prime example for us is wiring looms, since covid our previous supplier simply couldn't supply, we couldn't then find an alternative supplier who could get remotely near the price so we ended up tooling up & building the harnesses in house.
With the reduced staff levels we have we can make approx 10-12 looms a year when combined with other jobs which works well for inhouse builds but the demand for kits is much higher so we couldn't match those demands and also those of the inhouse builds as well. If we haven't got a wiring loom for an in house build we can simply move onto another element of the build or move on to a different car. The home builder cannot do this so his build would stall and that creates an issue.
With shipping costs having gone through the roof recently as well then it is also simply not viable to be posting follow on items out at a later date especially globally as parts then come back into stock.

Sorry for the essay

Craig

[Rogue Leader]

Speaking on behalf of LB then it is a combination of all of the above.
The LB order list had got rather long before Covid ever came along and staff levels had also been increased accordingly to help cope with demand.
Then Covid came along and staff were put on furlough etc which clearly didn't help production.
Upon the return to work then half the staff then decided that they preferred to be paid to sit at home and do nothing and didn't actually need to work so that among with a few other staff scenarios halved the staff levels instantly.
New staff after covid were then hard to find partly because of our geographic location but also because no one wanted to actually work anymore. This seems to be a fairly common theme when you talk to other companies as well.
With less staff and still a significant order book, the new found supply chain issues & then Brexit thrown in to the mix as well has to have a negative affect on how things operate.
LB have always offered in house builds and because of some of the press received over the years then there has always been a strong demand for turn key or turn key minus projects.
Some of the orders still being processed are still kit based but the majority are turn key.
There are arguments either way but because of the comprehensive nature of the LB kit mated to the supply chain issues brought about by Covid and Brexit then the parts availability for inhouse builds is currently more controllable than it is for kit supply.
A prime example for us is wiring looms, since covid our previous supplier simply couldn't supply, we couldn't then find an alternative supplier who could get remotely near the price so we ended up tooling up & building the harnesses in house.
With the reduced staff levels we have we can make approx 10-12 looms a year which works well for inhouse builds but the demand for kits is much higher so we couldn't match those demands and also those of the inhouse builds as well.
If we haven't got a wiring loom for an in house build we can simply move onto another element of the build or move on to a different car. The home builder cannot do this so his build would stall and that creates an issue.
With shipping costs having gone through the roof recently as well then it is also simply not viable to be posting follow on items out at a later date especially globally as parts then come back into stock.

Sorry for the essay

Craig

Craig,

That all makes sense, thanks a lot I really appreciate the explanation actually.

Tom

[Guy Mayers]

Thank you for the explanation Craig, probably more than was necessary but a useful insight for customers to realise what hurdles the manufacturers have to leap over or stumble through for every kit! I guess this means you have to hold significant stocks in fairly low numbers, sufficient for 3 or 4 builds to achieve your goal of supplying turnkey or minus cars. The chances of getting "just in time" suppliers in this industry must be zero!

Gerry is in a slightly different position but is beholden to sub contractors and Brexit has had an effect. Chronosport in Italy appear to have copied his bodies and are now putting them on an in house designed chassis, a situation that seems to have arisen due to increasing demand in Italy (and maybe Europe) and and unwillingness on Gerrys' part not to supply them with kits at the drop of a hat, pushing other customers down the waiting list. Whether Chronosport become a serious competitor to either Hawk or LB in the future we don't know but I suspect not. The likelihood is that some bureaucrat in Italy will stamp on the practice of making a replica there? They do now have an advantage selling into Europe thanks to Brexit though but how long will it take them to build the reputation of Hawk or LB? Who knows? Furthermore I don't know if this has soured the relationship Gerry has with them to the point of not supplying parts to them?

I also get what you're saying on shipping costs, especially worldwide but I think Hawk is a slightly different business model in that Gerry supplies the base kit and customers return to him for additional parts as builds progress. Obviously the customer pays additional shipping costs this way.

Guy

[Strat Fan]

Thank you for the explanation Craig, probably more than was necessary but a useful insight for customers to realise what hurdles the manufacturers have to leap over or stumble through for every kit! I guess this means you have to hold significant stocks in fairly low numbers, sufficient for 3 or 4 builds to achieve your goal of supplying turnkey or minus cars. The chances of getting "just in time" suppliers in this industry must be zero!

Gerry is in a slightly different position but is beholden to sub contractors and Brexit has had an effect. Chronosport in Italy appear to have copied his bodies and are now putting them on an in house designed chassis, a situation that seems to have arisen due to increasing demand in Italy (and maybe Europe) and and unwillingness on Gerrys' part not to supply them with kits at the drop of a hat, pushing other customers down the waiting list. Whether Chronosport become a serious competitor to either Hawk or LB in the future we don't know but I suspect not. The likelihood is that some bureaucrat in Italy will stamp on the practice of making a replica there? They do now have an advantage selling into Europe thanks to Brexit though but how long will it take them to build the reputation of Hawk or LB? Who knows? Furthermore I don't know if this has soured the relationship Gerry has with them to the point of not supplying parts to them?

I also get what you're saying on shipping costs, especially worldwide but I think Hawk is a slightly different business model in that Gerry supplies the base kit and customers return to him for additional parts as builds progress. Obviously the customer pays additional shipping costs this way.

Guy
Yes, apologies, it wasn't meant as a thread hijack.
I just wanted to say something because I feel that in reality there are far more things to deal with day to day in a post 2020 world than some customers would ever imagine.
Over the last 2 years or so a number of suppliers have simply gone, some cannot get stock because of the backlog since covid, others were buying from Europe and Brexit has cocked that up.
The just in time suppliers may not even exist anymore.

The Chronosport situation is not good and it is somewhat dirty. At least they haven't simply copied the chassis as well. what other parts they use I guess remains to be seen.
How anyone is registering a new Alfa powered build in Italy under EU regulations is open to debate. If an engine is not EU6 compliant it goes against the EU emissions directive.

Five in house builds on the go at one at one time would be a nice manageable figure, we have more than that ongoing currently but are working to get down to that sort of figure.
I think we've made something like 20 wiring looms in house over the last 18months and we are only now catching up with what we needed or what was owed.

[Rogue Leader]

Yes, apologies, it wasn't meant as a thread hijack.
I just wanted to say something because I feel that in reality there are far more things to deal with day to day in a post 2020 world than some customers would ever imagine.


No need to apologize, this is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to know. As a customer it sucks being told you may not see a car for 5 years, but at least I myself can understand even without the explanation, but highly appreciate it and all the challenges you face.

Chronosport it seems is trying to fill a space in the market for completed cars that I am assuming wasn't as prevalent until this latest boom. From what you say it sucks that they are kind of ripping off Hawk. I do know there is another body manufacturer for the Stratos out there in Spain, at least I assume they are making their own panels.

The regulations around the engine supplied is interesting, I guess you are required certain levels of compliance even though its a hand built kit car. Here in the US kit cars are kind of free range. Really anything over 25 years old, unless you're in California, you can get away with quite a bit, as long as it passes a cursory visual inspection.

[Rogue Leader]

Hello all, still around 1 year later, waiting patiently. I have searched on and off for unbuilt or barely started kits but haven't found anything yet. Still been collecting parts for my 164, but haven't started to build the engine yet. I did get a Q2 LSD though which would probably be fun in the Stratos. Hopefully my choices will be clear once my time comes around to be able to get one....

[Guy Mayers]

You just have to be patient.... and move quickly when one does become available or your slot opens in the waiting list.
Guy

[Juneau6]

Hello everyone! Does anybody at this forum live in Rotterdam? I think like I'm the first :)

[hollytree]

Not according to the member map. Take the "s" off the https
22547

[Rogue Leader]

You just have to be patient.... and move quickly when one does become available or your slot opens in the waiting list.
Guy

Yep, plenty of patience. What will be good is if I get moving I will at least have the engine/transmission built and ready to go for when I get it.

[Motorsport Minion]

Speaking on behalf of LB then it is a combination of all of the above.
The LB order list had got rather long before Covid ever came along and staff levels had also been increased accordingly to help cope with demand.
Then Covid came along and staff were put on furlough etc which clearly didn't help production.
Upon the return to work then half the staff then decided that they preferred to be paid to sit at home and do nothing and didn't actually need to work so that among with a few other staff scenarios halved the staff levels instantly.
New staff after covid were then hard to find partly because of our geographic location but also because no one wanted to actually work anymore. This seems to be a fairly common theme when you talk to other companies as well.
With less staff and still a significant order book, the new found supply chain issues & then Brexit thrown in to the mix as well has to have a negative affect on how things operate.
LB have always offered in house builds and because of some of the press received over the years then there has always been a strong demand for turn key or turn key minus projects, maybe from markets where kits aren't a familiar thing.
In reality some of the orders being processed currently are actually still kit based but the majority are now turn key or turn key minus.
There are arguments either way but because of the comprehensive nature of the LB kit mated to the supply chain issues brought about by Covid and Brexit then the parts availability for inhouse builds is currently more controllable than it is for kit supply. A prime example for us is wiring looms, since covid our previous supplier simply couldn't supply, we couldn't then find an alternative supplier who could get remotely near the price so we ended up tooling up & building the harnesses in house.
With the reduced staff levels we have we can make approx 10-12 looms a year when combined with other jobs which works well for inhouse builds but the demand for kits is much higher so we couldn't match those demands and also those of the inhouse builds as well. If we haven't got a wiring loom for an in house build we can simply move onto another element of the build or move on to a different car. The home builder cannot do this so his build would stall and that creates an issue.
With shipping costs having gone through the roof recently as well then it is also simply not viable to be posting follow on items out at a later date especially globally as parts then come back into stock.

Sorry for the essay

Craig


Hi Craig,

Another newbie here and on your waiting list too, thanks for taking time out to clarify what must be a frustrating situation for your company

From experience delays are forgotten far more quickly than poor quality

This is why I'd rather patiently wait than try to build car that fights me until it's finished or sold on as an unfinished project

Please don't stop selling self build kits as I'm already started collecting bits