Alfa 164 6 gearbox 3rd and 4th gears

[hollytree]

Apparently the gearbox is Alfa 164 V6 24v and is 5 speed rod change
Halifax Clutch N Gearbox called.
The box is stripped and the casing clean but 3rd and 4th gears are shot.
I need 3rd and 4th gears and 3rd and 4th gear hub kit.

Anyone got anything to sell that might do the job?

[Guy Mayers]

Gerry has a couple of 164 gearboxes in Frant but I suspect they're both 164 12v but will be rod change. Condition is anyone's guess!

Guy

[hollytree]

Guy
Thanks
My existing box is 12v with rod change so not worried about that.
How do I find out about the gearboxes you have mentioned?

[Guy Mayers]

Send Gerry (gerry@hawkcars.co.uk) an email Steve, I know I saw one on it's own in the "mobility scooter" shed and another attached to a 12v V6 under a tarpaulin in there too. No idea how expensive shipping would be though, they are heavy lumps of metal and will have been there a while.

There is another possibility - I gave Keith Sharp a spare gearbox from a 12v that I told him he could have for the diff cover and speedo drive gear. That went over to Howard at Allitalia in Wrexham and may still be there. If you give Howard a call to see if he's still got it and you're willing to pay him to dismantle it to check the condition of what you need I'm happy for you to have the bits if Keith doesn't need them. Howard may need to call me and/or Keith for his own peace of mind, I'm fine with that.

Guy

[hollytree]

Thanks
I will start calling and emailing today.

I have found some gears on ebay and emailed the suppliers but they really want to know registration or VIN number to check.
John who I bought it from says it was from a 24v V6 , so2 questions to the forum.

1.Anyone got a registration or VIN of a 24v v6 164
2. Is the 24v v6 and 12v v6 gearbox the same internally.

Ta
Steve

[hollytree]

Send Gerry (gerry@hawkcars.co.uk) an email Steve, I know I saw one on it's own in the "mobility scooter" shed and another attached to a 12v V6 under a tarpaulin in there too. No idea how expensive shipping would be though, they are heavy lumps of metal and will have been there a while.

There is another possibility - I gave Keith Sharp a spare gearbox from a 12v that I told him he could have for the diff cover and speedo drive gear. That went over to Howard at Allitalia in Wrexham and may still be there. If you give Howard a call to see if he's still got it and you're willing to pay him to dismantle it to check the condition of what you need I'm happy for you to have the bits if Keith doesn't need them. Howard may need to call me and/or Keith for his own peace of mind, I'm fine with that.

Guy

Guy
Howard says what's left of the box has gone back to Keith.
Do you have a contact with Keith please?

Regards
Steve

[Guy Mayers]

I'll email Keith's number to you Steve. He's in Nantwich - a little closer than Gerry!
Guy

[hollytree]

Guy
I have spoken to Keith.
He has the bits and I will collect next week.
I will then go to Halifax and see if they can make a box out of the 2 partial boxes.
Thanks for you help.
Regards
Steve

[hollytree]

Does anyone know how to identify whether a gearbox is a C503, C530 or a C630.
If it is 5 speed does that help.
If it is a mechanical shift (not cable) does that help.
If I have a 5 speed mechanical box with diff - does that imply the diff is good and strong
How can I identify one of the 'weak' diffs

I just want to close out all loose ends before fitting anything and risking a break later

[Strat Fan]

I think C530 & C630 are the cable shift boxes from the later CF2 & CF3 cars.
C530 I imagine is the 5 speed box from a GTV or 2.5 166, the C630 is the 6 speed from the 147/156/3.0 166 & GT.
The C503 seems to match what you have as the pre 1998 rod shift gearbox from the 164, early GTV's and the 155

[hollytree]

Craig
Thanks
I have seen some stuff saying a C530 is the 5 speed version of the C630.
There is lots of stuff on the web about the C630 6 speed diff being weak and the best thing to do is put in a Quaife or similar.
So if I have a C530 will that be a weak diff, and how do I tell? OR is it a strong (?) diff from a C503?
How do I tell the Alfa diffs apart

[ProtoTipo]

This page explains how to fit a Q2 or Quiafe to a C503
(https://www.alfabb.com/threads/fitting-an-alfa-romeo-q2-differential.153764/)
A C503 has the mechanical shift webs on top of the casing. This feature is present on all C503 versions, even the cable shift versions used in Fiat Coupes and Alfa 155 2.5 V6s.
The C530/C630 have the vertical cable shift selector.

The C503 is fitted to Alfa 164, Integrale etc.

[hollytree]

Chris
Thanks. I put a Quaife into the box in the car in situ, so am comfortable with that.

So if the box has mechanical shift webs it is a C503 and could be 164 12v (mine in car) or 164 24v (which I think I am rebuilding)
For this box that I am now trying to assemble out of other bits, I want to make sure that when I get to the end (if I do!) that I have all the right elements in place as a spare. Right clutch setup push/pull, diff that wont break etc.

[ProtoTipo]

Chris
Thanks. I put a Quaife into the box in the car in situ, so am comfortable with that.

So if the box has mechanical shift webs it is a C503 and could be 164 12v (mine in car) or 164 24v (which I think I am rebuilding)
For this box that I am now trying to assemble out of other bits, I want to make sure that when I get to the end (if I do!) that I have all the right elements in place as a spare. Right clutch setup push/pull, diff that wont break etc.

I see Steve?
Yes, a 164 V6 of any type.
Obviously the bell housing is a different bolt on part on the Fiat Coupe and 2.0 twin spark versions of the gearbox.

[hollytree]

I collected the old gearbox of Guy's that has been with Keith and then AllItalia for cannibalization and back to Keith. I took it to Clutch N Gearbox in Halifax to see if they can make something out of the 2 boxes.
The 3rd/4th gear sliding sleeve (burred teeth at engagement point) and the teeth on the leading edge of the 3rd speed drive gear (chipped/missing) are the problem. The helical gears are fine.
According to Craig at Halifax Clutch N Gearbox, this is usual wear and tear on a Fiat/Alfa gearbox that occurs on 3rd and 4th. He said "we see loads like that"

Seeing Keith's part built Hawk with the chassis in bright red lightly draped in a white centre tub put me in mind of one of Enzo's posts. https://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/3834-Christmas-2016!

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[Kenny m]

Must have had a lasting effect you didn't forget Enzo's post and to think they were looking pictures for the calendar lol

[Guy Mayers]

Does that mean back to square one Steve? If none of the bits are any good then please scrap the remains (unless anyone else wants them!)

Guy

[hollytree]

Guy, thanks ,but no all moving on.
The plan for me taking the original gearbox to Halifax was to:
1 get it checked
2 get it clean.
That discovered the broken bits.
The plan now is to make the best box using fully cleaned casings and the best set of internals from the original plus your box.
The man at Halifax seems to know what he is doing.
I will keep the old internals if people need/want any other bits, just call me.

[hollytree]

Must have had a lasting effect you didn't forget Enzo's post and to think they were looking pictures for the calendar lol

Not much to do up here in the North. Need something to think about

[hollytree]

Update from Halifax Clutch N Gearbox.
My 164 24V 5 speed box with damaged 3rd/4th gears is different internally (ratios, switch locations and reverse mechanism) from Guy's12v gearbox. The bad news is the gears from Guys 12v donor box can't be used on my damaged 24v box.
The good news is Guy's donor box is in good shape and now it is in bits the cases can all be cleaned and then rebuilt hopefully with the diff cover from my dead box completing the build.
Got there in the end and Craig from Halifax Clutch N gearbox has been fantastic.
2 boxes stripped, checked and cleaned. 1 rebuilt. He wants to charge me ?90 for the lot. ! Not enough in my opinion!! I will give him more.

[Guy Mayers]

Well that's a happy ending to your story! Hope it all comes together quickly!

Guy

[john]

Are the diff cover and gearbox casing not a matched pair?
ie: machined together for the diff bearing housings?
Might be lucky I guess, that they match OK but caution may be advised.

[hollytree]

John
I dont know. I guess I will find out when Craig at Halifax Clutch N Gearbox tries to put it all back together.
Keith must have used the one that is now missing from Guys box on his box.
I might be then looking for a diff cover!!

Hopefully mech change 164 12v and 24v boxes only differ in respect of gearing and the switches and the casings are pretty much constant

Don't you just love this s**t

[Keith]

Hi Steve,
here's the story with the diff cover.
I wanted to have a mechanical drive for my speedo but my 6 speed box doesn't have a speedo drive. Guy gave me his spare gearbox in the hope that the speedo drive bits could be transferred to my box. Turns out that whilst the speedo drive component on the diff fits my diff and the cover from Guy's diff will fit on my box, the wider crownwheel on the 6 speed is not compatible with the Guy's diff cover (I hope this is making sense!). So the original idea doesn't work. I kept the diff cover in the hope that I could get the 6 speed diff cover machined to take the speedo drive (according to Allitalia the necessary features exist in my diff cover, just unmachined) but I have come to the conclusion that the easier and less risky option is to accept having an electronic speed signal and one of those gismos that turns an electronic speed signal into a mechanical drive for the speedo. So , you can have the diff cover if you want it. On inspection the speedo drive components in the diff cover are not complete (maybe something dropped into the box at some point). But you probably have those anyway. I'll send you a picture in the morning when its light in my shed (where the cover currently resides).

[hollytree]

Keith
Thanks for the offer for the diff cover, I may have to take you up on it.
I got all the way to the end of my build and could not get my Alfa box speedo sensor to work with my VDO gauges, so I unpicked the loom, installed a shielded cable and bracket from Craig with a Hall sensor across the bolts on the drive shaft.

[hollytree]

I now have all the key bits to get the Guy/Keith donor box back together except one bearing set on the diff.
Does anyone know the part number etc for the diff bearings?
Are all diff bearings the same?
I might as well put it all back together in the best state possible

Are they the same size as the ones that come with the Quaife kit. I have the box for those labelled Timken1039-900SA

[Guy Mayers]

Pretty sure that my Q2 diff was fitted with the supplied bearings Steve!

[hollytree]

Guy
Yes my Quaife was/is fitted with the bearings, and the boxes for them was in the big Quaife box it came in which is how I got the numbers.
I am missing a bearing on the doner diff and I am trying to find where to get one, what size, what part number etc.
Is it going to be the same as the Quaife ones. I guess the outer diameter will be.

[hollytree]

Does anyone know if these are the right ones?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176056763595?chn=ps&_ul=GB&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=176056763595&targetid=1814673647502&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1006507&poi=&campaignid=19089547614&mkgroupid=142438599285&rlsatarget=pla-1814673647502&abcId=9303859&merchantid=6995734&gclid=CjwKCAiA-bmsBhAGEiwAoaQNmgscxwOx7mp-TzuNArgpAUiLn-rJ1cctWU8VkONvQ0_A8-D3po9kKhoC4XsQAvD_BwE

[Strat Fan]

See here? - https://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/parts/164_Differential.shtml

[hollytree]

Craig
Thanks.
Sizes match the alfaworkshop ones, the ebay ones and what I have gone and measured.
I have bought the Timken ones from ebay

[hollytree]

Gearbox picked from Halifax clutch N gearbox, all cleaned checked and put back together ?90

Some interesting facts.
Whilst both boxes purport to be be 164 3l 5 speed boxes and are exactly the same on the outside they are different design on the inside.
The only visible external difference is the reverse switch position. There may be 1 or 2 switches on top (S or L cars - reverse and something else)
Mine on the box in my car and the Guy/Keith doner box has the switch on the top/back.
The Rutt the Nutt box, the switch is down on the side under the clutch fork.
Not sure if top or side switches are earlier or later versions fitted to 164s (12v or 24 or whatever)

The original one from Rutt the Nutt is dead. 3rd and 4th shot and trying to find the right parts is nigh on impossible.
The doner Guy/Keith box is now back together with a pull clutch fork put in.

I have a complete set of casings all clean and all the gears and a diff from the Rutt the Nut box if anyone wants them. Free of charge.
If not they go to the skip this week.

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[hollytree]

Good news.
The dead gearbox has gone to Skipton tip.
The doner gearbox was stripped, cleaned, checked and rebuilt.

Got it home, heated the case with a blow torch to adjust the speed control arm bushes to get enough clearance to the speed control arm.
Fitted newly drilled speed control arm to mate with my Corse rod change.
Aaargh. Could not get 5th or reverse!
Back to Halifax for quick strip.
The reverse speed ratchet gear was not quite in the right place. Correct at top image , wrong at bottom image
Quick reset and all good.

Craig at Halifax Clutch N Gearbox would only charge for the box he stripped, cleaned and rebuilt. He would not charge for the one he stripped and cleaned as he says he only charges for successful outcome.
?90 for all that work!!
Top Man if you want your gearbox sorted

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