Litton Corse

Hi Clive, nice to see you're still around! :)

I guess you weren't that enamoured of your Stratos, from what you're saying...I get that, because they were never designed for regular, ordinary use, but for motorsport, so any considerations of "habitability" never came into it. They'll always demand a lot from a driver/owner, because that's their nature; and if it's too much like hard work, then you can go for "regular" classics. And yes, there are some wonderful inexpensive classics out there that we all love (lost count of how many Fulvias I've had, including a 1600 Zagato and a RHD Fanalone, and only last year sold my "modern" 124 Spider). But as for cost, well, the cost of a particular type of car has nothing to do with any rational set of guidelines. If it did, why would any Countach be worth what they are? Awkward to use, uncomfortable, can't even reverse one without sitting on the sill...No, people pay a lot of moolah for an exotic-looking car because of what it means to them, the feelings it can invoke, not based purely on practical considerations.

As for how a Strat rep drives, well, they're all different - they're all dependent on the build quality, the chassis design, and the suspension setup (all fully adjustable, so all capable of being totally crap if someone doesn't know what they're doing!)

The car discussed here is, as you say, incomplete, unregistered, and has no IVA, exactly as advertised. Why is that a bad thing? So is every kit that comes from a manufacturer. If it's not for you ("you" as in, any particular person), then that's fine, but it doesn't make it a bad buy for someone. It's still a lot cheaper than going to LB or Hawk and that's why it's not a bad price for a car you can finish yourself, even if it ultimately won't be as good a car as either of those. As someone recently said to me, yes you can get a ot of pleasure out of a different car for £17K, but nothing else looks like, or is, a Stratos, and that's what people want.

Anyhow, on with the show.... :) :)

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Originally Posted by FiveHundred

Quite!

Or what you can get instead for this chunk of money, or often even less - instead of an incomplete & unregistered, non-IVA-d, non-exportable kit-car.

Like this random sample (but with no connection to any of their sellers):

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1273450 (or...)

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/11580570 (or...)

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1337633 (or...)

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1282658 (And so on, and so forth...)

Being fortunate enough to retain both a Fulvia and a (modern) Abarth 124 Spider amongst my modest fleet; and recognising that they're both infinitely more satisfactory & satisfying to own/drive than any Stratos replica I've ever owned/driven; I'm left here to wonder - just like others above, from Renmure to Darkspeed - exactly why all this madness?

The natural result, maybe, of a coming-together between something like the 'Dutch Tulip Bubble' and the inescapable 'Laws of Supply-v-Demand'; yet I do genuinely believe there's some serious comfort to be had for we (less-pecunious) readers of this interesting thread from remembering just how much better value & sheer driving pleasure can still be obtained nowadays, out of spending rather less?

(Here endeth the lesson, though I doubt not, the controversy...)

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OK, I think we've found the guy who's annoyed that he sold his Stratos before prices went up. :)

If any of the cars you listed looked like a Stratos and drove like a Stratos, you'd have a very valid point. However...

As I am currently re building a Litton Corse i - I do have a vested interest in keeping an eye on prices and knowing the shortcomings of the Corse I also have a fair idea of the worth even in these vastly inflated times. My own car never actually had a Litton body and I followed the path of many Litton builders who had dumped the dreadful Litton glass and opted for an LB body. I had contemplated getting rid of the Honda engine and going Alfa but the Busso for all its fans does not hold a candle to the engineering of the Honda C27 lump or its voice. As with the 1600 chassis Litton I would have had to chop the entire rear cradle off and rebuilt the chassis from bulkhead back to get the Busso in and whilst well within my own capabilities not an option - the Jag V6 was also considered but when I tore a Honda down and saw inside - that idea soon went.

And here for me is where the economics at £17K never mind what the reserve was for an unregistered Litton fail. As Norm highlights if you spent £35K you would have a half decent finished 1600 1990's Litton ! - But that's a lot of cash that could be spent with LB to have a car worth upwards of £50K! - If you want a V6 in that Litton its another £7.5 K - so we are now at £42.5K for a 1990's Litton - Still with that questionable quality glassfibre bodywork.

Granted you could do it all on the cheap and if it sold for £20K maybe get the 1600 Litton on the road for an extra £5K - It's still a 90HP Stradale on 4 studs with the Litton standard of bodywork.

I will admit that these stupid prices being offered for low quality offerings have me wondering why I am bothering to rebuild mine at all - its not that I am likely to drive it much when finished.


Have some fun - If an unregistered 1600 Litton is worth £18K - well that's what eBay bidders say - hardly a glowing reference but hey.

What's a registered - 1993 Q Litton Corse I worth - project still in rebuild so a blank canvas with hours of anger and frustration ahead.

Whilst rebuilding the old dog in public on Retro rides I have had more than a few enquiries - but none have ever really taken me up on "Yes everything I have is up for sale at the right price so make me an offer I could not possibly refuse" They generally respond with "Wat's your best price" - as simple English is clearly beyond them I wander off to work on some Ginetta or other.

Modified strengthened Chassis
Door bars - Rear back stays and more.
The Bespoke alloy uprights - Scorpio hubs

LB Group 4 Square arch body - LB ducted bonnet type - Gel finish in wonderful Melon Yellow
Chin spoiler
LB group 4 dash - LB full set Group four gauges
The nice LB Stainless door hinges - Light lifters &MX5 lift motors
Stainless LB GP4 steering support
Carrello Head lamps
All new rear lamps - Front Hella Fogs etc.
Hawk ribbed lamp closing boxes - not the flat LB ones
Lightweight LB door poly windows
Tilton pedal box
Custom Nitron coil overs
Honda V6 - 2 off - gearboxes 2 off
1st Standard engine with Triumph Throttle bodies
2nd New Bottom end - low mileage heads - Special one off solid lifter Kent Cams race cams
One off manifold for triple IDFs from British championship winning autograss racer
2 sets IDFs Good s/h 40's and Brand new 44's running 36mm chokes.
New Megasquirt and S/H Omex 550
Lightweight fly
Full stainless exhaust
Original Rad - Duplex fans
All the usual X1/9 parts clasps and locks handbrakes steering etc.
Couple of Sparco race seats - Meh!
Fuel pumps
Stainless tank in mid modification
An alloy O/S Litton Tank
Sheets of new alloy
Bags of rivets
Tins of Epoxy chassis paint


A bucket of Scorpio brake parts
Some wheels and tyres to roll it about on
Old Willans harnesses
Loads of other odds and ends


I know what it has cost me - I keep a spreadsheet.

I think it cost £23K to build originally

Cheers

Well Andy, can I congratulate you on doing the biz with your car. (That's me being serious for once, by the way.) You're right in that your hypothetical £35K would be better being put toward an LB or Hawk, but if you've not got £50K+ and you really want a Stratos, your options are very limited... The advantage to Ste's car is that it's actually running and driving, so it's not simply a pile of bits. Personally I'd not bother with the Busso motor and tweak the twink it's already got, but that's a decision for the buyer (or Ste if he ends up keeping it).
Advantage of your car is it's already registered, but against that it's still a rebuild in progress.

But are Strat reps really "vastly inflated" or are you referring to old classics in general? If you want a turnkey Hawk or LB with a Busso V6 you'll be looking at over £80K. As a kit, I dunno, about £40K or more for the full skipload of parts, but then you have to build it, paint it, trim it, source a donor, blah blah blah. Face it, a good kit ain't cheap, and if yours was £23K back in the day, that too was a good chunk of loot. My Integrale was £25K new back in 1992...the Allora I did cost me £12 or 13K by the time it was finished in '89. As a running, registered car you could ask £35K for it now if it was still in decent nick. And Littons, CAEs and Napiersports will be about the same, IF they're in good condition and properly finished and presented.

So - ARE you selling yours too, or just toying with the idea from your jail cell after using an A40 starting handle to beat the cr*p out of the thickos who can't string a sentence together? :)

The Litton Corse S ( like Steves) can make a nice car with diligent effort, and some expense of course.
I know the ballpark figure thst this car sold for some years ago. And I know very well what it cost to do and how long it took.
There's a profit to be made in Steve's car even at £20k.

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Originally Posted by john

The Litton Corse S ( like Steves) can make a nice car with diligent effort, and some expense of course.
I know the ballpark figure thst this car sold for some years ago. And I know very well what it cost to do and how long it took.
There's a profit to be made in Steve's car even at £20k.

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I agree with what John is saying above, (but he knows better than me).

'Just in case anyone missed John's point. The Alitalia car in his photo is identical to the Stratos kit that is/was for sale at the start of this thread (Litton Corse S, - 'S' for strut rear suspension).
On a Corse 'S' It's easier to fit the deep dish coffin spoke wheels (in this case LB coffin spokes) on the rear.
One example of how an obsolete kit can still benefit from existing kit parts. A 'development', if you like?

Thanks Chris.
Yes, exactly, there were a few nice parts from Craig on the car.
Grp 4 arches, wheels, roof spoiler, grp 4 dash, gear linkage etc. but it was the same as the Litton offered above when bought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Normb666

.....So - ARE you selling yours too, or just toying with the idea from your jail cell after using an A40 starting handle to beat the cr*p out of the thickos who can't string a sentence together? :)

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Not sure the car is the Biz - but it is my path.

Am I selling mine? - No not trying to - "Everything I have is up for sale at the right price" which is an honest comment as I do not have any particular emotional attachment to vehicles. That is not to say that would let them go easily/cheaply it's a case of how desperate someone would be to own it.

My view on the recent Hawk and Litton project cars for sale differs wildly from the bidders as I just see something that I would need to rip to bits, throw away 50% and then start from ground up. I can only assume they see IVA in a couple of weekends a £2K respray the next and cruising in a Stradale for the summer.

I should just get on with building it and not worry about what other people are paying for unfinished kits. So you will have to excuse me, I am off into the garage to work on my Gemini......


Hi John,

Was it a 4 pot cradle rear in the Corse S you built or does the V6 drop in there / no difference in the rear cradle as it sounds like I am wrongly assuming that the rear cradle needs loads of work to get a Busso in there.

So tell us what cars you may have for sale, so that we can have a think?

Andrew,
The 12 valve Busso will go in the four pot cradle with minor mods. I remember that Dave Watson managed to drop a 24v in, but had to alter the rear frame of the cradle rearward slightly.
For the 12v it was engine mounts ( obviously), and re-position bracing in the rear frame to accommodate the rear bank headers.
Someone had ( badly) repositioned the diagonal tube which comes up from the side pontoon to the top strut mount, but I got it back more or less where it should have been during a general tidy up of chassis.
Sorry, long winded reply as usual.
The answer is yes, more or less!

"I" chassis is of course very different and was specific to the engine being installed. Your Honda engine chassis being better than the Alfa variety in my opinion.
Steve Ellis adapted his Honda engined chassis to accept the MG/Rover V6, but an Alfa would have been unviable.