Future kit builder

Hello there,

Quite a few years ago I purchased a home built Hawk HF3000, which for financial reasons I sold a few years later. My plan is to build a Lister Bell STR, which realistically I won't be able to start for 18-24 months or so. I was thinking of buying a 2.5 156 as the donor, because it's a nice revving engine, plus they're cheaper to buy. Eventually I would like to have different cam shafts fitted, and also independent throttle bodies too. However the bloke who works on my Alfa 75 V6 reckons the 2.5 doesn't have much torque, and the 3.0 is much better. Any thoughts please?

regards

paul

You mention the 2.5V6 as the donor is cheap - which is true, but then you want to add cams & ITB's, which will also need an ECU & possibly pistons, which I would budget at least 4K for? If you want an Alfa engine, then get the 3.2V6, which will give you more power/torque than the tuned 2.5V6 and although the engine is not cheap, you can get them for under 2K.

Hi Paul, and welcome to the club!

I've bought a 156 V6 as a donor for a Lister Bell too - I umm-ed and ahh-ed over the 2.5 vs. 3.0 (and 3.2) choice for a bit, and decided that, OK, maybe the 3.0 has more torque, but it's not like there's that much weight to be dragged around in the finished car...and having driven the donor around for a few months to make sure all's good, I can't honestly say it's lacking in performance for what it is! Sure, it's definitely "top-endy", but the noise it makes is fabulous, so that's not much of a hardship to endure!
My plan was to build the car using the 2.5 pretty much straight from the car, just tarted up a bit, and put it on the road using the donor car's V5 to get an age-related plate. Then, after a year or so, get hold of a 3.0 or 3.2, spend some money on that (cams, ITBs, new ECU, whatever) and swap over the manifolds and single-mass flywheel from the 2.5. I even thought about keeping the 2.5 box and installing a Quaife diff - the lower final drive should make for really good acceleration. Actually, if you're not modding the motor, you can even just swap the 2.5 for a 3.0 and use the 2.5 ECU so long as you use the 2.5 injectors, or that's what some guys on the Alfa forums have done (the lambda and MAF tell the ECU the engine's breathing really deeply, but the software's good enough to cope, apparently).

Whatever, the thing I'm trying to say is, if you go for a 2.5, you've not hit some kind of dead end. You can concentrate on getting the rest of the car right while running with a perfectly acceptable standard motor that does all the cold-starting stuff etc. that regular production cars do, and if you find down the line that you fancy a bit more go, it's no big deal to upgrade and you've already got the correct flywheel and nice manifolds. But it's a very personal thing - some people jump in with both feet and go for the full modded powerplant right from the off. All down to how much dosh you've got and how much grief you want to give yourself - just remember, it's supposed to be fun!!

Let us know which way you decide to go!

Cheers

Norm

I’ve decided to put a deposit down on a turnkey LB STR, 3 year waiting list but it gives me time to save. Still not sure about which engine to go for though!

regards

Paul

Congrats on finally making the decision, Paul - but now you'll have to change the thread title ;)

As it happens, I decided to forget the Alfa base after a change in circumstances last year, and now I'm going Toyota (already got the motor and box). I think the Busso motor's great - smooth, sounds fab, etc. etc., but in the last 12 months I've noticed the donors seem to be getting thin on the ground or expensive (compared to what they were)...plus they're not cheap to tweak! Might be an idea to start donor-hunting now, and stash it away till you need it!

I suspect that a well built 2.5 with cams, TB's, exhaust.. etc will have more than enough power.... so would you need the torque of a 3.0 to shove a 950kg car round ? (as Normy say's)

Up to you though... we all have the freedom of choice !

Phil

For what you'd spend on an Alfa rebuild, throttle body kit and cams, you'd be easily more money than a Toyota.
TBH, the busso has had its day unless you just have to have an Italian engine.

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Originally Posted by strat24v

....... unless you just have to have an Italian engine.

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Which is probably about the best reason to want one

Trouble with the Toyota mota here in Britain is that they're not easy to find either. Think they were only ever fitted to one model (IS350? something like that) and obviously the Lotus Exige and Evora. But, if you can find one, you've got loads of power without having to tweak it and they seem to be pretty much bomb-proof to boot.
Then once you've got the engine you need to sort a gearbox...that means either the Toyota E153 5-speeder from an MR2 Turbo - strong and available on Ebay but budget for a rebuild, plus flywheel and clutch, and the motor's block has to be mildly modified to get it to fit. Or there's the Lotus box which is basically an EA60 from an Auris/Avensis 2.2 diesel, but that'll need some modding too unless it's from a Lotus, in which case you need an adapter plate, the flywheel/clutch, special starter motor, intershaft bearing carrier..oh, and don't forget the engine loom and ECU :-O Jeez! Maybe the Alfa's the better choice after all! Haha!

Thing is, you have to decide which powerplant you're going for when you finally give Craig and Lydia your spec as the chassis is different, as are the driveshafts etc. etc. And once you've got that chassis, I don't think you can swap to the other engine (or maybe you can with major restructuring...all things are possible I suppose!)

The Alfa makes for a fairly straightforward build (it says here), but then the route to more poke is expensive. Go for the Toyota and although it might be a bit more awkward and pricey initially, you probably won't want any more oomph and therefore won't spend any more money (on the motor, anyway). But there's always the Komo-Tec upgrades if you do...they're up to 460bhp now...eeek!

As Phil says, up to the individual....!

I have heard of a brand new Alfa engine sitting somewhere.

You cal also by 'crate' Yota engines. Swindon Engines used to sell them, they might still do. This place offers them http://www.track-group.com/product-c...-parts/2gr-fe/ and this place http://www.dee-ltd.co.uk/powertrain/2gr-fe.html

No idea how much though.

Wonder if Craig could make a chassis to hold this?

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...ine-0km-unused

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You cal also by 'crate' Yota engines. Swindon Engines used to sell them, they might still do. This place offers them http://www.track-group.com/product-c...-parts/2gr-fe/ and this place http://www.dee-ltd.co.uk/powertrain/2gr-fe.html

No idea how much though.

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The first site mentions a price for a brand new unit of £5.5k - but on an exchange basis (seems a bit odd?)

The trouble is where do you STOP ?

By the time you spend on Toyota (possibly modified) and maybe a flappy paddle gearbox, you find your kit car is reaching the price of a Good Porsche (with full service history) or staying on the Italian theme An Alfa 4C to name just two of the many sports cars out there.

You have to carefully budget a build because it can easily run away with you. You need to know what you will use your car for? Touring, Posing, Track, Competition ?. Many have built a car, driven it and didn't like it ,so ended up selling it.. Everyone needs to at least go for a ride in a completed car before committing to a build. Also the European market may dry up if the EU gets its way. All factors that need careful consideration.

But at the end of the day the choice is yours, its your car and you drive it and its yours to enjoy. So if anyone tells you what to do tell them to get stuffed.


PS No I'm not a kill joy.......;)
.

Wise words Mel, Personally I think that 325bhp with massive torque which my motor has is too much for the road. The car is in my opinion a monster, to see the acceleration between 80 and 110 in something that is not a 100,000 supercar is good but stupid. Better to build a balanced car with 200ish bhp, trying to get more than that from the Alfa engine is expensive so better to go Toyota if more power is wanted, but trust me you wont need it. Whats most important is how the car feels and sounds, more power is just bragging rights in the pub. And if you are talking superchargers and heavy gearboxes you are just adding weight to the rear of the car which could upset the balance. Just my opinion but I am in a good position to give it.

I haven't had the chance to have a proper drive of my car yet, mostly just short runs too and from work and the odd club run around the area. Hope to change that this weekend. I'm estimating, based on what I've read for my mods, that my 2.5 Alfa engine is around 210 hp. I've fitted GTA inlet cams and bigger inlet runners, it revs forever and really pulls well above 4500rpm. My point is that is has enough power to scare me, based on the reputation of the Stratos that I have yet to experience. For me it's always there in the back of my mind that you might end up backwards through a fence or in a ditch. Until I've experienced that limit, hopefully at an upcoming track day, I'm not pushing too hard. After you've spent x amount of hours and dollars/pounds on your dream that last thing you want to do is ruin it.

No, not a kill joy Mel. Wise words from all.
If I understood the matter correctly ( tho I wasn't there) Bob was quicker at the sprint venue than Neil with his 500+BHP.
I am firmly in the camp of building a reasonably powerful car, standard for whatever engine you choose, in a well sorted and setup chassis.
I'm afraid I've listened to too many "bragging rights"conversations at Motor Clubs, shows, in the pub and at Motorsports events where the amount of money spent and power claimed can be almost universally found to be inversely proportional to the results and demonstrable talent of the spenders. Not always, but mostly!

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Originally Posted by LPH_UK

Wonder if Craig could make a chassis to hold this?

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...ine-0km-unused

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I could but it wouldn't have a Strato's body on it, nor a Strato's wheelbase.

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Originally Posted by john

No, not a kill joy Mel. Wise words from all.
If I understood the matter correctly ( tho I wasn't there) Bob was quicker at the sprint venue than Neil with his 500+BHP.
I am firmly in the camp of building a reasonably powerful car, standard for whatever engine you choose, in a well sorted and setup chassis.
I'm afraid I've listened to too many "bragging rights"conversations at Motor Clubs, shows, in the pub and at Motorsports events where the amount of money spent and power claimed can be almost universally found to be inversely proportional to the results and demonstrable talent of the spenders. Not always, but mostly!

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Hi John
It was actually Neil who was the quickest on the day by a couple of seconds.
My 280'ish bhp not able to keep up with his max speed down the short straights.
Neil was always 10 to 15 mph faster.
Rgds Bob

Oh OK Bob. I got the wrong end if the stick then!
It doesn't change my mind on how much carp there is talked about power though.

Spend the dough on brakes and dampers.

Well this has turned into quite the massive thread hijack, hasn't it... :) :)

I'm a bit confused here with peeps saying "XXXbhp" is more than enough, and yet there was Neil with over 500bhp in his car and no-one's said how mad or dangerous it was (so I'm guessing it wasn't!).
As Mel and others have said, you build your own car and that's all there is to it. The thing is, a 200bhp 2.5 Alfa-powered effort is always going to be loads of fun, in a wring-its-neck Mazda-MX5 type way. But a mega-power monster will also be a hoot as well (provided you're circumspect about when and where you hoof it). I have a theory that what people say they want changes in proportion to the depth of their wallet at the time...if you suddenly come into funds, that lower-powered option will soon get upgraded to something a bit more eye-opening!

I firmly believe you can never have too much power, you just need some self-control (or, as in my case, cowardice!) And just cos you can go fast doesn't mean you always have to - the throttle goes both ways! :)

I agree that different levels of power are 'fun' at different levels. My take on the 2 Lotus cars I've had:

Lotus 340R, weight 680kg 200 hp. Really fun to drive. Was very fast but you could get towards it's limits on the road and have fun without feeling like you would be arrested and the key thrown away if you were caught, or that you were going to die. OK on track but felt a little under-powered somewhere like Donington which is quite a fast-flowing track.

Lotus Elise with SC Honda conversion, weight 820kg 380 hp. FAST and I mean really, really fast. 3 secs to 60, less than 8 secs to 100mph. Insane mid-range acceleration. Could very easily hit three figures on the road before you knew it, easy to drive slowly but felt like it was going to kill you without giving it a lot of respect when hoofing it. Felt great on track, just endless POWER.......

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Originally Posted by Normb666

Well this has turned into quite the massive thread hijack, hasn't it... :) :)

I'm a bit confused here with peeps saying "XXXbhp" is more than enough, and yet there was Neil with over 500bhp in his car and no-one's said how mad or dangerous it was (so I'm guessing it wasn't!).
As Mel and others have said, you build your own car and that's all there is to it. The thing is, a 200bhp 2.5 Alfa-powered effort is always going to be loads of fun, in a wring-its-neck Mazda-MX5 type way. But a mega-power monster will also be a hoot as well (provided you're circumspect about when and where you hoof it). I have a theory that what people say they want changes in proportion to the depth of their wallet at the time...if you suddenly come into funds, that lower-powered option will soon get upgraded to something a bit more eye-opening!

I firmly believe you can never have too much power, you just need some self-control (or, as in my case, cowardice!) And just cos you can go fast doesn't mean you always have to - the throttle goes both ways! :)

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Well said.

My car has been built to a fairly strict budget, if I had the money when I was sourcing an engine I may have gone for a GTA, but I'm pleased I've gone with the 2.5, they're a lot more plentiful here. I've already got a spare in the garage which cost me very little. And 156's are still dropping in price here.

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Originally Posted by Normb666

I firmly believe you can never have too much power, you just need some self-control (or, as in my case, cowardice!) And just cos you can go fast doesn't mean you always have to - the throttle goes both ways! :)

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Im with you on that one Norm.

If I was starting my build today, I'd definitely be looking at going down the Toyota route.
My car has a 3.0 Alfa, probably around 230bhp, while it is not slow, compared to a lot of modern everyday fast road cars, it certainly wouldn't be described as fast.
Id say on a track, a well driven modern hot hatch would easily keep up with my car (definitely with me at the wheel of the LB!).

But it's certainly not all about how fast the car is, it's down to how it makes you feel when you drive it, driving a Stratos replica, in whatever form, is an experience far different to any hot hatch or big bhp German mileage eater.

As has already been said, its all down to personal choice and probably ultimately budget.

Further thoughts and deffo my last word on this (in case y'all fall asleep!), in the vein of a little perspective.

Nick's right about modern hot hatches and the like, but they're getting bigger and heavier all the time with all the kit that gets tacked onto them. So forget those, and forget your supercars too, cos if you want to see something REALLY fast, that's really cheap for what you get....look at motorbikes.

I'm lucky enough to have a small stable of said beasties, from an '81 Laverda Jota (fastest bike in the world in its day with a whole 90bhp - less than a cooking 600 today) through a Ducati 916 and an MV Agusta F4 1000S (with new ECU, mapped so it runs properly and with 156 rear wheel HP), and a 2017 Kawasaki ZZR1400 with 200bhp (or 210 with ram effect).
Now there's no way you can use all that power all the time - in fact you can only use it fully very rarely, unless you particularly like prison food or you've had enough of this world. But what's great about them all is the overtaking grunt they have...queues hardly exist, cos you're never in them for any prolonged period. With the ZZR particularly, even two-up, I don't even have to change down most of the time. Have to say I've never troubled the red line... acceleration figures are 0-60 in 2.5secs (only that slow because it tries to "loop" off the line), 0-100 in 5, 0-124 in 10....all that for £15K. And we're discussing whether 300, 400bhp is too much in a Stratos? Give over! :)

Just one final observation: anyone wondering what's "safe" or "sensible", please take a step back right now, and ask yourself exactly what it is you're glueing together in the garage?

Yeah, it's a lookalike of that Mad Stratos thing :) Think "safe" and "sensible" just left the party ;) ;)

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Originally Posted by Normb666

...ask yourself exactly what it is you're glueing together in the garage?

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Oh shit - am I supposed to be glueing it together? I've been using nuts and bolts and stuff......

C'mon Leigh, you've had several modern Lotuses...Lotii...ok, you had a modern Lotus. And then another. :-P So you know it's not about nuts and bolts these days - it's about bonding. Just like we all do on here.... ahem :) :)

nice thread guys - enjoyed it !!

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Originally Posted by Stratos Fear

nice thread guys - enjoyed it !!

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Thats what its all about..........enjoying it.

I know it would probably cost a hell of a lot of money and would only have about 250bhp, but I imagine a highly tuned 2.5 with throttle bodies would sound pretty awesome.

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Originally Posted by Paul904

I know it would probably cost a hell of a lot of money and would only have about 250bhp, but I imagine a highly tuned 2.5 with throttle bodies would sound pretty awesome.

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250bhp is not to be sniffed at & I think an Alfa 2.5 on ITB's revving to 8000 rpm & exiting through a single tail pipe would probably sound as good as an Alfa could sound.

It would also possibly be the best impersonation of a Dino that an Alfa V6 could make as well.

That’s true, would a modified 2.5 be ok revving at 8000rpm?

Hi Chaps,


Well I’ve narrowed it down to one of two engines. It’s either gonna be a standard 3.2 with ITB’s, or a 2.5 with high compression pistons, forged rods, GTA cams, and ITB’s. I know that the 3.2 will have a load more torque and power, but I imagine that the 2.5 could sound nicer, and could be a more involved drive. I reckon the 3.2 would have around 300bhp, and the 2.5 250-260bhp. Not 100% sure yet, as the only V6 I’ve driven is a 3.0, and my 3.0 75.


Cheers


Paul