Help needed with brakes

Hi All,
Just need advise on brakes on my Litton, Currently I am using Alfa 164 (24V) front calipers (I think they are 57mm piston) and I am using a pedal box set up, using 0625 cylinders both back and front. ( Lancia Beta rear calipers) I do not know the pedal ratio, and braided hoses thru out the car.
Problem is I cannot get the front brakes to work, It is like I am not putting enough pressure on the front brakes even if I adjust the bias totally to the front. Is it possible the .625 cylinder is too small for the Alfa calipers.
Normally with this type set up you would have a solid pedal but I still have travel in mine, I have tried many different ways bleeding the brakes and I think (or maybe not) I do have them fully bled ! But at this stage I am totally confused,
I would love to move away front this set up and get a four pot calipers but the offset on the wheels limits its. What calipers do fit the Alfa set up anyone know ?
Any help appreciated
Thanks,
Gerard

I don't have access to my data until I'm home next week, but I'll post then. I doubt if you have enough rear effort.
I have the 164 fronts, Wilwood 4-pot rears and a dual servo. Yes, a real mongrel which will have many grimacing! This is on a Hawk which only has a 4:1 (IIRC) pedal ratio. I can't remember my master cylinder size offhand as I've been through several.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChrisCar6

I don't have access to my data until I'm home next week, but I'll post then. I doubt if you have enough rear effort.
I have the 164 fronts, Wilwood 4-pot rears and a dual servo. Yes, a real mongrel which will have many grimacing! This is on a Hawk which only has a 4:1 (IIRC) pedal ratio. I can't remember my master cylinder size offhand as I've been through several.

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Thank you,
Forgot to say I do not have a servo fitted

Alfa 164 24v front calipers are indeed 57mm. Alfa 164 M/C 0.937” 23 mm / Bendix OE 22.2mm
Beta rear caliper = 34mm = 907sqmm

Hawk brake pedal ratio is 4:1

Bigger M/C = less travel/more effort required

My M/C setup is - 0.75" front 0.7” rear with dual servo https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/...te-brake-servo

FRONT 164 24v floating 57mm
Piston area 5104 sq.mm.
Pad area 50sq.cm 7.75 sq.in
Disc diameter 284mm

REAR setup willwood 4pots https://www.wilwood.com/calipers/Cal...0-8729&appid=0
3 sq.in. pistons 19.35 sq.cm.
pad area 5 sq in 32.26 sq.cm
disc diameter 284mm



Balance depends a bit on your front/rear weight split, but using figures from other Strats, for the front and rears to lock at the same time at 0.9G negative acceleration the ideal ratio should be 52% front and 48% rear.
I think you have much more on the front - what diameter discs do you have on the back? I am sure someone can come up with the mathematical equations for integrating M/C, caliper piston area/ disc diameter into simple model, but I relied on Martin Kift!

Has Martin Kifts information disappeared for good?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by john

Has Martin Kifts information disappeared for good?

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Yes John,
As far as I know, he was never a member of this (new) forum.
I kept a very lengthy email message from him, regarding the set up and use of the Honda engined Hawk rally car.
There's nothing on brakes within that. That car had 6R4 discs all round with no servo.

A shame. A lesson learned to extract and save useful stuff like that.

My Shades has a pair of 5/8” mcs and 4pot AP racing calipers on AP ventilated 300mm disks front and back. Hard pads and no servo. Admittedly the balance bar is at max priority to the front but I am very happy now with the balance under braking.

If you dont know, it is important to set the mc push rods so the bar it parallel to the bulkhead (or orthogonal to the push rods) under max brake pedal pressure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by john

A shame. A lesson learned to extract and save useful stuff like that.

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I've just had a look, and I did save one thread on brakes.
I can move this to somewhere else if it's too much for this thread.
'Probably in the brakes section of the technical section?
Here it is:

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000162 EndHTML:0000767178 StartFragment:0000004001 EndFragment:0000767142 SourceURL:file://localhost/Stratos%201/BrakesThread.doc

Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 339 Hawk/Transformer Hub Questions Hi everyone. All this talk about 5 bolt hub conversions has got me thinking about which hubs are which but without the build manual, I find I'm just guessing at it. Could somebody help clarify exactly what hubs we're using in both the 4 and 5 stud configurations? I think that in the 4 bolt configuration, we have the standard Beta front hubs and custom jobs on the rear. If this is the case, is the custom rear hub the same spec as the front? I think that some Delta parts are used in the 5 bolt conversion but I'm not sure which. Are these just Delta hubs adapted to the beta carriers and are they the same front and rear? Besides just wanting to know, the main reason I'm asking is that I've been looking for brake rotor hats. These are a bit difficult to find in the US in 4 or 5 x 98 mm. While Jeff D. has drawn up an very nice set of plans for custom ones, custom hats are a bit expensive and it seems to me that if these are Beta or Delta items, somebody somewhere probably makes a hat that fits properly. Tarox makes hubs for both the Beta and the Delta but I'm not sure if either these would work. Thanks in advance for your input. John B. Last edited by JohnB_SPY8808053; August 10th, 2002 at 07:36 PM.

#2 August 10th, 2002, 10:17 PM

chris.richard Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Back on the road Posts: 5,485 I'm afraid you'll have to translate "brake rotor hats" for us Brits! Brake rotor I understand as brake disc, but "hat"? Got me there mate! The standard rear HF2000 hub setup is standard Beta front hub/bearing/CV joint/driveshaft, and therefor 4 stud. The 5 stud conversion uses a Delta hub, which uses a common Beta/Delta bearing set (although Betanut questioned if they are identical). If you use the original Beta outer CV joint, you have to machine out some of the inner end splines on the Delta hub, as the Beta CV has a longer plain section and a shorter splined section. If you use an Integrale outer cv, you don't have to do this. But it's not all that simple.... The older Hawk hub carriers use the Beta castelated nut method of retaining the bearings at the inner end, and if you've got one of these, you have to use a CV joint from an 8-valve integrale without ABS (See Matt-no-VAT's recent posts - this is what I've ordered from John Whalley Ltd, I hope it'll fit). If you have one of the newer hub carriers with a circlip retention of the bearings, you can use a later Integrale CV joint (although ? needs to be non ABS). Or you can tack weld the castlated nut in place and then machine a groove for using a circlip ( so says Gerry) so that you can use a newer Integrale CV joint. As supplied, the Delta hubs are for wheel bolts, and need studs inserted yourself. The front 5-stud hubs are a fabrication by Hawk which directly replaces the Fiat 4-bolt hubs used on the standard setup. They are supplied with studs inserted. This is the situation as I understand it, and if I've got a bit wrong, somebody please say so before I'm too far down a blind alley! with my setup! __________________ Chiave con un martello in una tettoia Last edited by chris.richard; August 10th, 2002 at 10:20 PM.

#3 August 10th, 2002, 10:42 PM

JohnB_SPY8808053 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 339 Sorry for any confusion. By rotor hat, I mean the bowl shaped alloy center section that attaches to the hub and to which a seperate brake rotor or disk is then attached. Now I'm curious - what do you call this part in the UK? I think I understand about the rear hubs now but I have one more question about the front. When you say that the original 4 bolt front hubs are Fiat parts, which model(s) are they from? Thanks again, John B.

#4 August 11th, 2002, 09:10 AM

rutthenut Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Berks Posts: 2,214 Quote: Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053 Sorry for any confusion. By rotor hat, I mean the bowl shaped alloy center section that attaches to the hub and to which a seperate brake rotor or disk is then attached. Now I'm curious - what do you call this part in the UK? This part is generally described as the disc 'mounting bell', which does have a 'top hat' section, so rotor hat sounds fair enough! Something on noticed on the CAE Corse race car, some years ago, was that instead of using a custom alloy construction for this part, a standard iron/steel disc had been used as the basis for the disc mounting bell. Most of the outer part of the disc had been machined away, leaving a small section remaining so that the vented disc could be mounted to this area, after drilling suitable bold holes. I assume that this was done on a solid type disc in the first place, which isn't exactly expensive. This has the advantage of being the correct dimensions to start with, regarding the wheel-bolt pcd and hub area. There may be a disadvantage if the offset isn't what you really want to the position of the vented disc outer, but there would be a choice of mounting that on the inner or outer side of the original disc. __________________ John Rutter, aka Rut The Nut. Owner/builder/racer and now only occasional driver of an HF3000. Regular co-driver for O'Crikey in BMW 325, competing in the RWD Challenge at numerous national btrda events.

#5 August 11th, 2002, 10:00 AM

Chris Jarvis Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 87 John B. The front hubs are FIAT 132 type, and some older Fiat models, but I can't remember which. __________________ Chris J

#6 August 11th, 2002, 06:33 PM

JohnB_SPY8808053 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 339 Thanks for the info and ideas! So far it sounds like the best rotor solutions are: 1. Machine down standard solid disks to use as a hat/bell for Wilwood rotors. 2. Have custom hats/bells made for use with Wilwood rotors. 3. Buy a set of Tarox rotors. As for calipers, the choices seem to be: 1. Fabricate a custom mounting bracket for Wilwood calipers. 2. Buy a Tarox kit that comes with the caliper mounting bracket. The solid hat/bell is cheap to start with but what does it cost to have it machined? I'm guessing it would be less than having a custom had made since there would be a LOT less work involved. Custom hats generally cost around 150-200 USD each. Most new hats/bells are alloy though so a custom one should be lighter. The wilwood disks are very good and only cost about 50 USD each. Tarox makes alloy hats/bells that will work off the shelf but as far as I can tell, they only mount Tarox disks. That may not be a bad thing though - they get great reviews. The Wilwood 4 pot calipers can be had for 110 USD ea. and if you wanted more up front, the 6 pot are only 330 USD. The Tarox calipers again work off the shelf but they are a LOT more expensive. Then again, they're Italian and regarded as being among the best you can buy. Any opinions out there? John B.

#7 August 12th, 2002, 02:28 AM

Jeff Davison Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Suwanee Georgia USA Posts: 215 John..... btdt....... I fabricated my own caliper mounts front and rear for my Outlaw calipers (same form factor as the Wilwood). I also had Coleman Racing fab me up (to my specs) hats (bells) to fit the rotors that I chose (11.75" dia. 1.25" thick fronts & 11.75" dia. .81" thick rears - all vented). I posted a while back and even left drawings and pics on the "old" Yahoo Group site. Also I designed brackets for the Wilwood mechanical spot calipers for use as parking brakes. Here's some pics: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/strato...Rear%20struts/ and: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group...c=gr%26.view=t If you need more pics and or drawings just give a shout. Jeff Davison Last edited by Jeff Davison; August 12th, 2002 at 03:06 AM.

#8 August 12th, 2002, 05:42 AM

JohnB_SPY8808053 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 339 Jeff, Your solution looks great - I just want to make sure I've considered all the options. John B.

#9 August 12th, 2002, 12:28 PM

Stratos Moderator and Webmaster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,296 John, Integrale discs are 284mm (Approx 11.25") and are vented and are a direct fit for both front and rear - no need to machine any hats. If you use those, the only fabrication you will require is caliper mounting brackets. __________________ David Watson Lancia Stratos Supersite Stratos RAC 2008 Pictures Lancia Stratos Replica for sale

#10 August 12th, 2002, 09:16 PM

chris.richard Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Back on the road Posts: 5,485 brake discs John Rutter was commenting in a previous thread that the rear brakes do more work than the front.I'm doing the Alfa 164 brake conversion with the 5 stud hub conversion - should I be looking to put the vented discs on the rear and the solid on the front? This would mean redoing the caliper mountings and would need a separate handbrake caliper. Would it be worth it? Any thoughts out there? __________________ Chiave con un martello in una tettoia

#11 August 12th, 2002, 10:14 PM

mogul_x Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kenilworth, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 745 Chris, I was about to say that swapping front brakes with rear sounds like more trouble than it's worth, but you've already identified the worst of it, and it really doesn't look all that bad. I guess the only thing I can really say is that I've never seen it done that way. Every mid-engined car I've ever had the wheels off of has had the larger brakes up front. Of course, my experience is limited to a few student-built formula cars, Pontiac Fieros and my MR2, so I may just not have come across it yet. I think it might be done that way to ensure that the rear wheels will never lock up before the fronts. Understeer is a little safer than oversteer I guess. __________________ Scott McGill Hawk HF3000 #0111040

#12 August 12th, 2002, 10:48 PM

Stratos Moderator and Webmaster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,296 The rear brakes do a lot of work, but the front also do a lot. I think that if I was building a road Stratos I would fit 284mm vented fronts with 4-pot calipers, and 284mm rear with something like a 164 or Integrale single pot caliper (both same caliper) at rear to get a mechanical handbrake. If I was building a competition car, I'd put as big on the front as possible with as big a caliper as possible, either 4-pot or possibly even 6-pot, and on the rear I'd put 284mm vented with 4-pot and either have a hydraulic handbrake, or fit an extra single pot caliper for a mechanical handbrake. AND, in both cases, I wouldn't run a servo. Just my opinion though - others may think otherwise. __________________ David Watson Lancia Stratos Supersite Stratos RAC 2008 Pictures Lancia Stratos Replica for sale

#13 August 13th, 2002, 09:39 AM

rutthenut Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Berks Posts: 2,214 Re: brake discs Quote: Originally posted by chris.richard John Rutter was commenting in a previous thread that the rear brakes do more work than the front.I'm doing the Alfa 164 brake conversion with the 5 stud hub conversion - should I be looking to put the vented discs on the rear and the solid on the front? Although the rears do *seem* to do more work, I would definitely not recommend dropping from vented to solid discs at the front. The reason for vented discs isn't that they will let you stop quicker or brake harder (they don't), but that they cool better and therefore allow you to continue braking at the maximum level. Solid discs do not cool down enough when under repeated heavy use (i.e. in track/competition use). This leads to the pads getting too hot and brake fade becoming a possibility. If your rear brakes fade or fail, locking up the fronts would cause you to go essentially straight on. If your front brakes fail, the rears do not even have to lock up to introduce serious instability and very high chance of a spin under braking. Hence the front brakes should always be equal or better than the rears. The difference in work load between front and rear brakes will be related to the increased static weight at the rear of the car, so can *allow* slightly larger brakes to be fitted to the rear. This doesn't mean that it *needs* larger brakes fitted that way. A lot of this is theory-based, but there are some definite practical issues to think about - spinning off when braking if the front brakes are, or become, less efficient than the rears is a very real possibility. __________________ John Rutter, aka Rut The Nut. Owner/builder/racer and now only occasional driver of an HF3000. Regular co-driver for O'Crikey in BMW 325, competing in the RWD Challenge at numerous national btrda events.

#14 August 13th, 2002, 12:33 PM

chris.richard Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Back on the road Posts: 5,485 Thanks for yet another useful input, John. At least that simplifies it - I'll just put the front on the front and the back on the back! __________________ Chiave con un martello in una tettoia

#15 August 13th, 2002, 08:05 PM

JohnB_SPY8808053 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 339 Here are three possible braking solutions based on what I have learned so far. I'm just thinking out loud at this point - anybody have an opinion? John B. Solution 1 2x Wilwood 6 pot calipers (front) for $331 ea. = $662 2x Wilwood 4 pot calipers (rear) for $109 ea. = $218 4x Wilwood Vented Rotors (disk only) for $56 ea. = $224 4x Custom Rotor Hats/Bells for $155 ea. = $620 Solution 2 4x Wilwood 6 pot calipers (front & rear) for $331 ea. = $1324 4x Wilwood Vented Rotors (disk only) for $56 ea. = $224 4x Custom Rotor Hats/Bells for $155 ea. = $620 Solution 3 4x Tarox 6 pot calipers (front & rear) for $360 ea. = $1440 4x Tarox Vented Rotors (disk & hat/bell) for $335 per axle. = $670 The reason for not considering a Tarox 6/4 pot set up is that Tarox 4 pot calipers are actually more expensive than the 6 pot becuse they are such a low volume item. All three solutions would also require: 4x Custom Mounting Brackets for around $50 ea. = $200 4x Steel Braided Flex-Lines for around $30 ea. = $120 The total cost of solution 1 is $2044. The total cost of solution 2 is $2168. The total cost of solution 3 is $2430. Please note that this doesn't include any kind of tax/VAT or shipping costs.

John, www.raldes.co.uk Integrale Disks are from £69 upwards I would have thought that 284mm Integrale discs with Wilwood Superlite IIa 4-pot calipers all round would be an excellent setup either for road or competition use. It's almost what I have on my car. Is it for road or competition use? For road use, I would do the above as it would be more than adequate. For competition use, the above would also be acceptable, BUT, for ultimate performance, go for as big as you can fit under the wheels, and can afford!!! Just my opinion. __________________ David Watson Lancia Stratos Supersite Stratos RAC 2008 Pictures Lancia Stratos Replica for sale

#17 August 13th, 2002, 09:12 PM

chris.richard Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Back on the road Posts: 5,485 3 options John, You don't mention parking brake - or would the cost be the same for each setup? __________________ Chiave con un martello in una tettoia

#18 August 13th, 2002, 09:43 PM

mogul_x Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kenilworth, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 745 Cool link! David, Thanks for the raldes link. I took a quick look at it, and saw that they have cross drilled and vented disks for Alfa 164. Now I know where to go if I want to go a step up from the stock units I will be installing on my car. And I will be replacing the stock units eventually, from wear if nothing else. __________________ Scott McGill Hawk HF3000 #0111040

#19 August 13th, 2002, 09:46 PM

Jeff Davison Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Suwanee Georgia USA Posts: 215 Can't have too much brakes, handling or H.P. My philosophy is work on brakes and handling first. Any one of the "solutions" should be fine, but don't forget to balance your "total" budget otherwise you may come up short in one of the 3. Also consider the weight of the components and the effect they'll have on the handling - unsprung weight ..... If $$ is not an object, I have a good source for Ceramic coated Titanium rotors (they weigh only 3 lbs each (without hat) BUT cost $700 per corner. If you still have more $$ in your budget, there's always the Brembo sources Porsche GT3 composite rotors (but they probably wouldn't fit in a 15" wheel). Jeff Davison

#20 August 13th, 2002, 11:02 PM

Stratos Moderator and Webmaster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,296 Quote: Originally posted by Jeff Davison Can't have too much brakes, handling or H.P. My philosophy is work on brakes and handling first. I agree entirely. Quote: Originally posted by Jeff Davison If you still have more $$ in your budget, there's always the Brembo sources Porsche GT3 composite rotors (but they probably wouldn't fit in a 15" wheel). My fronts are 310mm, using a very low profile caliper from Hi-Spec Engineering, and I would think that this is the maximum you could fit under a 15" wheel. My rears are 284mm Integrale using Wilwood Superlite IIa. __________________ David Watson Lancia Stratos Supersite Stratos RAC 2008 Pictures Lancia Stratos Replica for sale

#21 August 14th, 2002, 02:28 AM

JohnB_SPY8808053 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 339 Thanks for all the feedback. The application is primarily Tarmac Rally and some AutoCross (I believe these are called Auto-Tests in the UK). The parking brake will be hydraulic - It's getting installed shortly along with the new pedal box so I didn't really consider it part of the brake upgrade which won't happen for a few months yet. I don't have the weights for any of the Tarox bits but I'm guessing that the Wilwood 6/4 setup would be the lightest. That said, every review of the Tarox parts I've read has been VERY good... and for some strange reason, I really like the idea of having Italian brakes. Do you guys think that 6 pot calipers would be overkill for the rear with the wider tires on tarmac? John B.

#22 August 14th, 2002, 08:29 AM

rutthenut Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Berks Posts: 2,214 How about the option of using four-pots at the front too, I doubt it would make any real difference to braking efficiency or stopping power? Solution 0 2x Wilwood 4 pot calipers (front) for $109 ea. = $218 2x Wilwood 4 pot calipers (rear) for $109 ea. = $218 4x Wilwood Vented Rotors (disk only) for $56 ea. = $224 4x Custom Rotor Hats/Bells for $155 ea. = $620 The total cost of solution 0 is $1600 (if my maths is right) The total cost of solution 1 is $2044. The total cost of solution 2 is $2168. The total cost of solution 3 is $2430. Hawk option - Wilwood calipers, disks, alloy bells, mounting brackets, etc. Price ? plus shipping + tax. Another option could be to use Integrale front discs all round (four stud and five stud versions are available), as these are a reasonable size vented disc and should work out cheaper (in Europe, at least) than Wilwood or other rotors and custom hats/bells, but still requires mounting brackets and your choice of caliper. I guess it all depends on how much you are prepared to pay, what is easily available (pads too, which aren't on your price list) and what level of braking performance you are looking for. __________________ John Rutter, aka Rut The Nut. Owner/builder/racer and now only occasional driver of an HF3000. Regular co-driver for O'Crikey in BMW 325, competing in the RWD Challenge at numerous national btrda events.

#23 August 14th, 2002, 11:40 AM

Matt No VAT Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Alone in the wilderness... Posts: 641 Now I'm curious about the braking setup options, my initial idea with mine is fairly simple (bit like me!) I was thinking of fitting Brembo 4 pots and Vented disks to the front, these are taken fron an Integrale Evolution 2. Integrale Evo 2 rear disks (Solid) with the rear brake being the single pot caliper from Beta/164/Integrale but with uprated pads. Car will be used mainly as a road car - maybe the odd Hillclimb or sprint. My only concern is that with far more stopping power in the front will the back to try and overtake the front under heavy braking? (Not having driven one yet or even rode in one I am a little in the dark as to the handling characteristics under such conditions) __________________ Matt

#24 August 14th, 2002, 12:30 PM

Stratos Moderator and Webmaster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,296 Matt, The setup you are proposing should be fine. It's very similar to the setup Gary Lomas uses on his car. __________________ David Watson Lancia Stratos Supersite Stratos RAC 2008 Pictures Lancia Stratos Replica for sale

#25 August 14th, 2002, 01:34 PM

Andrew Way Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Witney, Oxfordshire, UK Posts: 258 With all this talk of brake set up I thought it would be worth mentioning weight transfer. In simple terms when a car brakes the effective corner weights increase at the front and decrease at the back. This means the grip levels increases at the front and decreases at the back, thus the maximum force applied to the front brakes before the wheel locks up is much greater (typically 75% of the net braking force). Just look at the brake set up on a sports motorbike, two large front discs (~Ø320mm) and one small rear disc (~Ø180mm). Now just to confuse the issue, the Stratos has an interesting weight distribution, it’s a lot heavier at the rear than the front and so the need for the braking power to be front end biased is reduced. Just thought I’d throw that in! Anyway, theory is one thing but you can’t beat real experience. Andrew.

#26 August 14th, 2002, 02:31 PM

Matt No VAT Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Alone in the wilderness... Posts: 641 The setup you are proposing should be fine. It's very similar to the setup Gary Lomas uses on his car. Thanks David, you've settled that little worry of mine __________________ Matt

#27 August 14th, 2002, 06:55 PM

JohnB_SPY8808053 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 339 Regarding the idea of using Delta disks. Did you mean to imply that I could use 4 bolt Delta disks on the Beta/132 132 hubs? This would be very convenient but I'd want to make sure it all fit together properly - particularly with regard to size of the hole where the hub protrudes through the hat/bell. John R - are you saying that in your opinion, 4 pot calipers are sufficient for the front? You probably have the most tarmac experience of us all but anybody else is welcome to throw their opinion out. If the 4 pot calipers will do, they save about 2 lbs per wheel in unsprung weight over the 6 pot versions. Thanks again, John B. PS - Have I mentioned lately how much I appreciate this forum and all your help?

#28 August 14th, 2002, 10:59 PM

Stratos Moderator and Webmaster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,296 Quote: Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053 Regarding the idea of using Delta disks. Did you mean to imply that I could use 4 bolt Delta disks on the Beta/132 132 hubs? This would be very convenient but I'd want to make sure it all fit together properly - particularly with regard to size of the hole where the hub protrudes through the hat/bell. Yes, the Delta Integrale 284mm discs will fit the Beta/132 hubs. I was using these on my fronts last year, then I swapped them to the rear for this year when I upgraded the fronts to 310mm discs. More important than the 4-pot or 6-pot configuration is the actual pad area. If the pad areas on a 4-pot and 6-pot were the same, the only real benefit a 6-pot would give is that the pad wear would be more even. A 4-pot will give a more tapered wear than a 6-pot. __________________ David Watson Lancia Stratos Supersite Stratos RAC 2008 Pictures Lancia Stratos Replica for sale

#29 August 15th, 2002, 12:08 AM

Jeff Davison Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Suwanee Georgia USA Posts: 215 David, Some Wilwoods and other calipers can be supplied with differntial sized bores/ pistons to aleviate pad taper. Pad taper is much more pronounced in the fronts, so that is where the calipers with differential bores are most likely to be used. The rears really don't benefit. The quad Brembo calipers that I fit to the front of my Scorpion/Montecarlo uses differntial bores as well as the Outlaw calipers I'll be using for my Strat. I.M.H.O. 6 pots is way overkill if 4 pots w/ differntial bores are used (unless John plans to do some really high speed circuit or oval work with his ride). Also the cost is not significantly different between 4 pot calipers with the differntial bore sizing and equal bore sizing. AND, I'd talk to the manufacturer also to get their recomendations as they can supply many different diameters depending on application. I happen to live 15 minutes from the manufacturer of Outlaw so it's an easy phone call for me. John, if you go Outlaw, call them and ask for Bill Swiderski, he is very up on his porduct and product usage. Jeff

#30 August 15th, 2002, 12:19 AM

Stratos Moderator and Webmaster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,296 Quote: Originally posted by Jeff Davison David, Some Wilwoods and other calipers can be supplied with differntial sized bores/ pistons to aleviate pad taper. Jeff, I purchased my Superlite IIa calipers in December 1999, and they had 2 1.75" pistons. At the time the Superlites weren't available with differential bores, or if they were I didn't understand it back then!!! I now use these on the rear of my car. When I did the last pad change on the car only a few weeks ago, there was quite a pronounced pad taper on the pads. __________________ David Watson Lancia Stratos Supersite

With the Stratos being a very short wheelbase car and the rear doing proportionately more of the braking, and a very rear weight biased car... that could explain the degree of taper of the rear pads... just an idea. Maybe the Strotos could benefit from differential bores in the rear. Jeff Davison

#32 August 15th, 2002, 03:52 AM

JohnB_SPY8808053 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 339 Apparently Wilwood makes calipers both with and without the differential bore. In some cases a single caliper model is offered both ways. The Billet Dynalite caliper I was looking at does not have the differential bore, but it costs about half and weighs about 1.5 lbs. less than the lightest caliper that does. John B.

#33 August 15th, 2002, 04:34 AM

Jeff Davison Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Suwanee Georgia USA Posts: 215 John, Check out the 3000 / 4000 series from Outlaw. The quality is outstanding and the selection is good as far as sizes. Cost is about $200 or so per corner. Also I believe that Brembo has a European "Sport" line that is oem'd by Outlaw. http://www.outlawdiscbrakes.com/3000_4000.html Jeff Davison

#34 August 15th, 2002, 08:52 AM

rutthenut Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Berks Posts: 2,214 My views on 4-pot versus 6-pot seem the same as David's - I don't think they necessarily increase stopping power and can be seen as an additional expense. I will accept that they are better calipers, but I have not yet seen their need. Besides costs, there is also the weight penalty that you have indicated, and another set of seals in the system - although I don't think that's a reason to avoid them, or else I'd recommend single pot units. Re. Integrale four-stud discs, yep they do fit, as indicated by David (and used by David, myself and Gary Lomas in different configurations). Cheers, __________________ John Rutter, aka Rut The Nut. Owner/builder/racer and now only occasional driver of an HF3000. Regular co-driver for O'Crikey in BMW 325, competing in the RWD Challenge at numerous national btrda events.

#35 August 15th, 2002, 09:10 AM

Stratos Moderator and Webmaster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,296 Quote: Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053 Apparently Wilwood makes calipers both with and without the differential bore. In some cases a single caliper model is offered both ways. The Billet Dynalite caliper I was looking at does not have the differential bore, but it costs about half and weighs about 1.5 lbs. less than the lightest caliper that does. John B. The Superlite offers a 10% increase in pad area compared with the Dynalite. I have heard from some people that the Dynalite is prone to flex, which leads to pad-knock off, but as I have never used them, I don't know how true this is. These two reasons were why I decided to get Superlites rather than Dynalites. __________________ David Watson Lancia Stratos Supersite Stratos RAC 2008 Pictures Lancia Stratos Replica for sale

#36 November 19th, 2005, 09:03 PM

Sptwoman Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,440 Hawk 5 stud options Hi All, I've read enough info on 4 to 5 stud conversions and brake set ups to give up before I've even started Can anyone humour me please? The build book states Beta hub up front and fabricated supplied on rear for HF2000. I'm going down the 164 V6 24V route with Hawk supplied 5 stud hub option. 1. Does this 5 stud conversion do away with the need to source a beta front hub? Does it replace the rear? 2. Will the original 164 disks / calipers fit direct and are they man enough? 3. Which bearing are needed? 4. Will the original beta drive shafts fit straight off in this config or do I need to replace CV's? 5. Is it possible and cheaper not to buy the Hawk 5 stud conversion but use Lancia Integrale 5 stud hubs all round? If so what disk, caliper, bearings etc set up would be required? Apologies if I'm duplicating, Allen.

#37 November 19th, 2005, 09:08 PM

Sptwoman Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,440 Also hand brake Also Do I use the standard Beta hand brake set up and does it fit omto the 164 caliper? Allen...

#38 November 19th, 2005, 09:36 PM

chris.richard Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Back on the road Posts: 5,485 1) Hawk's 5stud kit includes a custom made alloy front hub. Well, 2 actually! 2)Hawk supply the caliper mounts to use the Alfa 164 calipers. Roger(001) Donnan races with these calipers and has no problems, even at Spa. 3) Front is Fiat, same as for the Beta based kit, rear are delta integrale bearings 4) Use original Beta inner CV and driveshaft, integrale evo outer cv, without ABS ring. I posted the part numbers the other day for Stratosphere. 5) I don't think so - the stub axle wouldn't fit, I'm sure, and the Integrale was 4WD, so it's hubswill be designed to accommodate driveshafts. __________________ Chiave con un martello in una tettoia

#39 November 19th, 2005, 09:37 PM

chris.richard Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Back on the road Posts: 5,485 Quote: Originally Posted by Sptwoman Also Do I use the standard Beta hand brake set up and does it fit omto the 164 caliper? Allen... Yes it does fit. I'm having a struggle to set it up, but others have done it and find it satisfactory. __________________ Chiave con un martello in una tettoia

#40 November 20th, 2005, 08:57 AM

pimms Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Arnhem, Holland Posts: 1,232 [quote=chris.richard] 4) Use original Beta inner CV and driveshaft, integrale evo outer cv, without ABS ring. I posted the part numbers the other day for Stratosphere. Hi Chris, I just bought some Beta drive shafts ( see attached picture ), they are with the longer splines, are those also ok to use I also attached some pics of the five stud kit from Hawk ( front alloy hubs, rear hubs with studs and front calliper mounts and rear calliper spacers to fit the Alfa 164 callipers ) Best regards Attached Images __________________ Pim, www.lancia-stratos.nl Luctor et Emergo

#41 November 20th, 2005, 09:50 AM

chris.richard Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Back on the road Posts: 5,485 I'm not aware of anybody using Beta outer CVs with the 5-stud bub, but I might be wong. Do the splines fit? If your hub carrier has the locking ring to retain the bearing, the ring and/or the CV might need to be machined so that they don't foul each other. __________________ Chiave con un martello in una tettoia

#42 November 24th, 2005, 04:24 PM

pimms Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Arnhem, Holland Posts: 1,232 [quote=chris.richard]3) Front is Fiat, same as for the Beta based kit, rear are delta integrale bearings Hi all, I'm going for some wheel bearings for the Hawk rear hub carrier ( circlip type carriers ) this weekend, does it make any difference if i use front Delta wheel bearings or rear Delta wheel bearings ( maybe they are the same because of the 4 WD? ) Do i need bearings from a particular production year of the Delta Integrale, or are they all the same? Best regards, __________________ Pim, www.lancia-stratos.nl Luctor et Emergo

#43 November 24th, 2005, 06:26 PM

chris.richard Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Back on the road Posts: 5,485 part no 5890988 Hub bearing delta Evo __________________ Chiave con un martello in una tettoia

#44 November 24th, 2005, 07:12 PM

pimms Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Arnhem, Holland Posts: 1,232 Thanks Chris __________________ Pim, www.lancia-stratos.nl Luctor et Emergo

#45 November 28th, 2005, 06:34 PM

pimms Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Arnhem, Holland Posts: 1,232 Quote: Originally Posted by chris.richard I'm not aware of anybody using Beta outer CVs with the 5-stud bub, but I might be wong. Do the splines fit? If your hub carrier has the locking ring to retain the bearing, the ring and/or the CV might need to be machined so that they don't foul each other. Yes the splines fit. Attached Images __________________ Pim, www.lancia-stratos.nl

Pim I'm pleased to see that. While we're on the subject; I've just bought two of these drive flanges from Walkers (although the same price was quoted by John Whalley) for £58.16 and that's including vat., so nothing to add. It is exactly the same part used on the driven end of an Alfa 147. Not that knowing they're also an Alfa part will get you them any cheaper. Part no. 82466910 Last edited by Chris J; April 15th, 2010 at 02:17 PM.

#47 November 29th, 2005, 10:57 AM

Chris J Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Outer Mongolia Posts: 5,291 Re: Part no. 82466910 drive flange. It is the same part on all four corners of an Evo Integrale.

#48 November 29th, 2005, 11:01 AM

Chris J Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Outer Mongolia Posts: 5,291 I've got a question regarding the wheel/hub bearings: If the Evo integrale hub/drive flange is a direct replacement for the Beta hub/drive flange, are'nt the Delta and Beta bearings the same part?

#49 November 29th, 2005, 04:12 PM

pimms Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Arnhem, Holland Posts: 1,232 Quote: Originally Posted by Chris J I've got a question regarding the wheel/hub bearings: If the Evo integrale hub/drive flange is a direct replacement for the Beta hub/drive flange, are'nt the Delta and Beta bearings the same part? As I understand from Gerry's mail , the bearings are the same only the Beta uses a locking ring that screws in while the Integrale ( and the Hawk rear hub carrier I recieved ) uses a circlip locking ring. __________________ Pim, www.lancia-stratos.nl Luctor et Emergo

#50 November 30th, 2005, 09:28 AM

Chris J Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Outer Mongolia Posts: 5,291 So, has the specification of the Hawk upright changed to accommodate the Delta bearing locking device?

#51 November 30th, 2005, 10:56 AM

chris.richard Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Back on the road Posts: 5,485 Yes, the current ones are grooved for the circlip, older ones threaded for the locking ring __________________ Chiave con un martello in una tettoia

#52 November 30th, 2005, 11:39 AM

Chris J Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Outer Mongolia Posts: 5,291 Quote: Originally Posted by chris.richard Yes, the current ones are grooved for the circlip, older ones threaded for the locking ring Chris Which bearings would I need for the older threaded upright, but using a Delta Evo 5 stud hub? Are the locking devices part of the bearing kit, or doesn't it matter whether you ask for Delta or Beta bearings because you end up being supplied with exactly the same parts?

#53 November 30th, 2005, 06:40 PM

chris.richard Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Back on the road Posts: 5,485 I got delta bearings (See previous post for part no.) The locking ring is a Beta part. I had to file down part of my locking ring coz it fouled the CV. __________________ Chiave con un martello in una tettoia

#54 May 4th, 2009, 11:31 AM

Chris J Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Outer Mongolia Posts: 5,291 'Just to confirm a few things that John H. Peter J. and Ken T. were discussing just after the AGM at Stoneleigh: All the higher powered Deltas including all the Integrales have the same wheel/hub bearings as the driven end of a Lancia Beta. The long splines on the outer Delta CV joints do fit both the old Beta drive flanges/hubs and the Integrale Evo drive flanges/hubs. I've just tried some, and there's a photo that Pim put on earlier this thread. The old short spline Beta CV joints will not fit the Integrale Evo drive flanges/hubs. As mentioned by Scott at the start of this thread.

#55 January 31st, 2010, 09:16 PM

Ocrikey Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Edge of Ashdown Forest Posts: 925 I've just read through the entire thread and my head is hurting... With the Hawk 5 stud setup what is the best outer cv joint to opt for. Also is a standard inner cv Alfa 166 unit up to the job. Finally how do I work out the correct length for the driveshafts? Another way of putting this is :- Alfa 166 inner cv with Integrale, non abs, outer cv. Install both and set the car down on its wheels. Position the outer cv halfway along its movement and measure from circlip to circlip. Am I doing this correctly? __________________ Still green behind the arches Treat any comment with caution Last edited by Ocrikey; January 31st, 2010 at 10:57 PM.

#56 February 1st, 2010, 08:03 AM

Chris J Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Outer Mongolia Posts: 5,291 I've bought from this supplier before: Not always listed Complete with nut boot and grease With the recent Hawk uprights you won't need to modify these CVs. I would have to.

#57 February 1st, 2010, 08:26 AM

Chris J Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Outer Mongolia Posts: 5,291 Quote: Originally Posted by Ocrikey Finally how do I work out the correct length for the driveshafts? If your engine and box are in the 164 position, that is, using the mounts that came with the chassis: LH shaft will be 352mm (no spacer) RH shaft will be 368mm (no spacer) or: LH shaft at 352mm (no spacer) RH shaft at 352mm (with 16mm 6 hole 94mm pcd spacer) Don't quote me on that though! Why not make up a dummy shaft out of either end of an old Beta and an old Alfa 3.0 shaft. Tack weld a tube to fit snug over both, and then test that for plunge/float through the full suspension travel? 'Might be best to find out exactly what length these new shafts from Gerry are, for reference. I thought they'd be 340mm, but some inner CVs vary in thickness. 'Don't know how thick the ones on the green car are?

#58 February 1st, 2010, 09:11 AM

Ocrikey Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Edge of Ashdown Forest Posts: 925 [quote=Chris J;50611] Why not make up a dummy shaft out of either end of an old Beta and an old Alfa 3.0 shaft. Tack weld a tube to fit snug over both, and then test that for plunge/float through the full suspension travel? QUOTE] Thanks Chris, I will offset the engine left so as long as I get the combined lengths to match I should be heading in the right direction. The mock up drive is a great idea I'll just need to find 2 old Beta shafts.... John __________________ Still green behind the arches Treat any comment with caution

#59 February 1st, 2010, 10:36 AM

Chris J Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Outer Mongolia Posts: 5,291 Quote: Originally Posted by Ocrikey The mock up drive is a great idea I'll just need to find 2 old Beta shafts.... John 'Just one old Beta shaft and one old Alfa shaft. You could just tack weld it until you've arrived at the required length. Unless you're going to offer two different dummy shafts (if you're going for two different lengths for LH and RH) for the engineering people to use as reference. That wouldn't be a bad idea really? At least that way there'd be no chance of getting the overall length, spline size and circlip/c clip groove wrong at each end? Maybe give them a CV for either end too?

#60 February 1st, 2010, 10:56 AM

Ocrikey Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Edge of Ashdown Forest Posts: 925 Yep, that's where I'm heading, 2 different lengths, nice price on the cv's and although not oem they are magde in Italy... __________________ Still green behind the arches Treat any comment with caution

Blimey, was that really 17 years ago!? And here's us not a day older. Or wiser.

Good find Chris J.

What's the Litton pedal ratio? Most aftermarket pedal boxes seem to be about 6:1, Hawk's is poor on that.

If you want to get really nostalgic, it opens in Word as it appeared on the old forum, (less avatars):

Small progress report, Changed the front master cylinder to .75 and yes this did make an improvement, so I decided to change the pedal ratio from 3.3 (60/200 mm) to 5.2 (42/218 mm). I thought this would make a bigger improvement, but no really, its still not what I would call super brakes, I am waiting for a set of Ferodo DS2500 brake pads to arrive and that may help. When I compare my Stratos brakes to what I have in a standard Vauxhall Nova GSI with Mintex 1144 pads its chalk and cheese

With the higher pedal ratio, can you reduce the M/C size further?

Hi Chris,
I changed to 0625 front and 075 rear and I really expeceted this to work but no, (I genuinely could not lock the brakes at 20 mph on a wet road).Its like the rear brake is stopping the front cylinder working because the pedal is so stiff, so hours later I changed the rear to .7 and finally the front brakes are now working but I have a long pedal travel So I then changed the front again to .7 (Now back and front) and no not happy with this, so best combination so far but not happy is .7 rear and .625 front.
I am now thinking of changing the calipers to ones with a smaller piston size. or am I really missing something here ?

If you have a Litton does it not have the Tilton pedal box fitted?

For an unservoed braking system I really feel that you need fixed body calipers with multiple small pistons to maximise pedal feel and efficiency.

If you are sticking with the floating single piston calipers then I really think you will need to have a brake servo fitted to make the brakes work as you want.
See HERE for a unit which would satisfy both the front and rear circuits. Whist it isn't cheap it would still be much cheaper than new 4 pot calipers and wouldn't cause you any issues with wheel clearances.

For reference here are a few pictures of Corse "S" cars with 4 pot brakes fitted-
Attachment 15449Attachment 15450Attachment 15451
And another with Wilwood calipers-
Attachment 15452

Thank you, yes I have a Litton and it did not have a Tilton pedal box fitted and correct I do not have a servo.
The Hi Spec brakes that you have in the photo would you know the dimension from the disc to the outer part of the caliper ? I did contact Hi Spec but they never replied.
Thank you
Gerard

According to the HiSpec drawing I have it as being 49.5mm from the disc face to the outer face of the caliper.
Attachment 15453
The PDF of the Billet 4 caliper can be seen here- Attachment 15454
We fitted the set up shown under 16" wheels but with care they should fit under 15"

I remember printing all the HiSpec drawing and making lots of sketches.
You maybe interested in looking at page 8 of this thread started by my son Michael.Litton Corse build with 2.0l Lancia 8v TC

I have HiSpec front and rear 4 pot calipers with 300mm vented rotors and custom bells on my Litton using 15" wheels. They really work. I used a 5/8" front master cylinder and a 13/16" rear master cylinder. As Tim mentioned earlier in the thread, having the balance bar parallel to the axle line when braking results in great brake pedal feel.
I used HiSpec offset caliper mounts to attain good caliper alignment.
The HiSpec sales guy was very helpful on the phone but email is not the best way to deal with them.....

Thank you Paul and Tim,
Had a look at it again last night and I recon I will change to a Subaru disc which will put the disc in another 12mm and if I machine the hub I should be able to safely machine another 5mm off it which at that point I will be getting close to been able to fit four pot calipers.
Unless anyone else know of a brake disc which has a greater height than the Subaru which are 57mm unless I go for the rear ones which are 67mm high, but are only available in 20mm thickness
Or maybe I should look at some custom bells which probably be the easiest way !

I used a HiSpec 300 x 22mm off the shelf disc and one of their universal disc bells to move the caliper and disc as far inboard as possible to give maximum wheel clearance.
I think I did skim a little off of the aluminium hub but can't remember exactly now.
On the rear I used a standard Alfa 156 (front 285 x 22mm) vented brake disc as caliper clearance wasn't an issue with the Gp4 rear wheel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChrisCar6

Blimey, was that really 17 years ago!? And here's us not a day older. Or wiser.

Good find Chris J.

What's the Litton pedal ratio? Most aftermarket pedal boxes seem to be about 6:1, Hawk's is poor on that.

---

Tilton in the Litton measures as 6:1 and had .750 m/c's fitted with the stock Scorpio brakes - no idea if that is right wrong or sideways or how good the pedal was as I can only comment on what I have removed not how it worked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkspeed

Tilton in the Litton measures as 6:1 and had .750 m/c's fitted with the stock Scorpio brakes - no idea if that is right wrong or sideways or how good the pedal was as I can only comment on what I have removed not how it worked.

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I originally built my Corse I with this setup (Tilton pedals and Scorpio brake calipers/discs). I can describe them as barely adequate - slowed the car eventually with no real 'bite'. I've since changed to the Hispec setup from Craig with large disks (330mm I think) all round - it was transformational. Car now stops as agressively as needed with tire grip being the limiting factor once the pads have heated up (EBC yellow).

I do remember talking to Mick (Catswhiskers) about brakes when building my car because he had Alfa calipers and Tilton box on his Corse - he told me that he installed a remote servo booster to improve performance

Regards
Paul

Finally sorted !!!, I changes to BMW 316 disc 290 x 22mm which moved the disc inwards and allowed me to fit the Hispec 4 pot calipers. Now I have a brake, with a real good bite as soon as you press on the pedal without big effort. My conclusion from this is, its very difficult to get a good brake from a sliding caliper with a piston size of 56mm without a servo.
What I have ended up with is Disc 290 x 22mm Four pot calipers with 34.6mm pistons, Front master cylinder .625" and pedal ratio 5.2 :1 and loads of smoke out of the front tyres :D

And a healthy dose of confidence too, eh?
Well done for the perseverance.
Have you got a part reference for the discs?

Did that need a custom caliper mount Gerard?

John / Chris,
I tried to upload two photos , no luck with that so far.
I used a pair of second hand disc I got off a 07 BMW 316 and the calipers I took of a rally TR7 which I bought last year for breaking, Made the mounts myself so spent nothing ;)
I can get the part number for the disc if required

Attachment 15519

Attachment 15520

I like it! Makes a refreshing change from throwing as much money at a problem as possible which seems to be the current trend.
I guess the disc is easily identifiable enough from a database such as Brake Parts International.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by john

I like it! Makes a refreshing change from throwing as much money at a problem as possible which seems to be the current trend.

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Sounds like we best hold off on that carbon ceramic disc and 6 pot upgrade just yet eh Jim??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Strat Fan

Sounds like we best hold off on that carbon ceramic disc and 6 pot upgrade just yet eh Jim??

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I was happy to pay all the money for the carbon ceramics since it should keep the brake dust down.
I guess it should make the car stop better as well but that's a secondary concern.