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This Hawk recently resprayed with a nice Pirelli livery is for sale with an extra-big price in Andorra :eek:
This car was used in several historic rallies in Spain and Portugal these latest years
The car has carbon Kevlar panels but a non prepared 2.5 Alfa engine
I have no link with the seller but I have seen the car in one rally entered
https://www.classiccarsandorra.com/lancia-stratos
B------ -ell !!! That's e...l...a...s...t...ic thinking I suspect.
Year of manufacture 1972.
I don't think so......
'Mistakes' like this in advertising happen too often and beg the question, "Is it deliberately misleading?"
Caveat Emptor applies methinks.
Would anyone buying a Stratos not realise this is a replica? I doubt it.
Anyone wanting a "1978" (thank you SVA Amnesty) LHD Pirelli liveried car is welcome to offer me €240,000 for it. And I think I'd have to consider that quite seriously...
To be fair, the advert does say it's a replica, and with my Devil's Advocate hat on, it could be that the thinking is that it's still a lot cheaper than a genuine car. But with my Get Real hat on, you'd wonder why anyone would pay that price when you could build your own new one for, what, a third of the asking price?
As I see it, a car's value is increased due to one, or a combination of, several factors - usually, its desirability, restricted availability and the fact that they aren't made any more. So the Real McCoy is currently sitting in the stratosphere (appropriately), value-wise, due to a combination of all three. A Hawk or a LB, however, can still be bought new (unless something's changed lately), and so values for them must be anchored (roughly) by the price of a new, turn-key car, e.g. if a car of a given spec would cost £75k built, a good used one would be about the same, but maybe somewhat more if availability issues (e.g. long waiting list) applied and people didn't want to wait.
If, however, both companies decided to jack in the Stratos rep thing and get into something a bit less stressful ;) , then replica values could also rocket as the yardstick of new car availability/price would disappear.
So the point I'm trying to make (finally!) is that, although I've argued several times that our cars' values are rising in line with their respectability and quality, 245K Euros is, er, a tad over the top...well, at the moment, anyway :)
MANUFACTURE YEAR 1972
Motor Alfa Romeo 2.500 cc - V6 192 Hp
Preparation for competition :
- 6 point Roll Cage
- Backets ( homologation new )
- Harnesses ( homologation new )
- Automatic Homologated Extinguishers
- Four additional headlights
PRICE OF SALE € 245.000 WoW!!!!!!!
John It's not a mistake...this car was registered in France as a Lancia Stratos 1972!! And sold in auction a few time after...I think you know how and where!
Guy with a EU registration you surely could as yours is a nicer car and a well dated one!
Oh right Frederic, I see.
No surprise there then.....
Surely somebody somewhere is accountable for this deception ???..... or is it just me being a tw8t ?
I really do find this deplorable (not just sour grapes either !)
No Phil, discovering that someone's successfully managed to register it as a 72 Stratos makes me feel quite uncomfortable. I suppose, if it couldn't be registered as a Hawk or whatever it really is, that might have been the only way round it? But then, I don't know much about registering replicas in France. And why 1972? Why not a year between 74 and 78?? But as I said earlier, it does actually say "replica" in the advert, so you'd hope a potential customer would do some research first, especially when that amount of cash is involved.
As for you being a tw8t....well, er.... ;)
I can see what you're saying Norm, it does say replica, but there are some Mk2 Escorts out there which are replicas of works cars but we're never built at Boreham. Most were at least built originally by Ford. I guess it depends on what you mean by replica.
I'm with Phil. Sure caveat emptor applies and for sure you would have to be one sandwich short of a picnic to be buying this and actually thinking you are getting an original. But I find it a bit sordid and deplorable is a good word for it. Sounds like it might not be the current owner who gave it the 1972 identity though but it shouldn't be maintained.
Fully agreed with all your comments!
The 1972 registration date was certainly obtained by the previous owner with a Lancia donor car as Fulvia or 2000 HF and changed the model for a Stratos with some magic wand in the registration office! :(
You couldn't buy a production run Stratos in 1972.
I see, Frederic, so a previous owner could have modified an existing registration. Naughty!
Chris, correct, no such thing as a '72 Stratos. But the guy in the registration office wouldn't know that....it's just an old car.
The thing is, though, that the advert contains no fibs. It's a 1972 Stratos, and a replica, with the features mentioned. The only thing causing jaws to drop is the price - if it'd been E45k, and not 245, it'd only have warranted a brief comment.
John, I understand what you're saying about differences in the meaning of "replica" - a regular production version modified to emulate a specific rally car, or a kit-car replica. But I think in this case, it'd be taken to be the latter given how few original cars were made, and the current market for Stratos reps. Sooooo.....is the price intended to reflect the fact that it's registered as a genuine Stratos? Still seems far too steep, especially given the chances of being caught in a dodgy act and the consequences of that.
I wonder what price they'd be asking if it was fitted with this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1969-74-F...b720%7Ciid%3A1
Guy
Its not a Lancia mill.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Mayers
Has the trolley got a V5?
Chris, I bet the trolley's not got a V5, but it could well be adapted from an old WW2 V1 or V2 launch trolley. Or maybe not. :)
It is part of an actual Dino chassis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Normb666
'Just wonder where the rest went?
The story in the advert is that this was removed from a low mileage crashed Dino which was damaged in Germany. So likely they just cut the engine out complete with engine mounts and chassis rails then put some useful casters on. German practicality in action. So I guess we have to infer the rest of the car got binned. Back in the day when V5's were not as valuable as they seem today.
Yes, but there is enough info in the advert to apply for the V5
A complete engine, gearbox and differential assembly from an E series Ferrari 246 Dino GTS *07786*.
Engine numer: 135CS000 *0011791*
Gearbox number: 2856E
Bellhousing number: 929
Dino guru Matthias Bartz has confirmed this engine and gearbox pertain to Dino 246 GTS *07786*, built 03/1974 delivered to Auto Becker Düsseldorf.
*07786* was crashed in the mid 1970's and the engine removed. It has been in careful dry storage for the last 45 years, turned over by hand periodically to keep everything from seizing.
But In line with much discussion on this subject here and elsewhere, what are the ethics involved in applying for a V5, or other national registration, when all you have are numbers? I this case you would have a matching engine of course, but an engine alone does not define a car. Never has.
I'd have to say I think its unethical.
It would be a way of by- passing systems like IVA, which have important road safety purposes after all , at best and have fraudulent implications at worst.
It has a gearbox too so in the old days didnt this qualify as a substantial part of a donor to go on a replica.....???Quote:
Originally Posted by john
For points towards keeping an age related or donor registration when you built a kit car from a donor, instead of having a Q plate. Yes, that went on.
I don't think it would justify obtaining a V5 when you've never had the original car.
yep price is over the top, but keep in mind it is almost impossible to register a new Lister Bell or Hawk on the continent. It wil have to be looked at as a complete new, non existing car with a very rigourous kind of IVA. Also comply with the newest enviromental standards. Than in Holland there is that special Tax which is a kind of enviromental taks calculated from horsepower and weight. For my Lancia 037 build i calculate now 15.000 Euro's just to get a registration and that is after the IVA which costs 3000 to 5000 if you are Lucky. This calculation gets worse by the year, just ask Stephan who is building a Lister Bell right now and trying to register it in the Netherlands. For that i wish i lived in the UK.
An older existing registration however is much easier to get a registration and less tax and its even much better if its a registration thats already on the continent. The RDW ( Dutch DVLA ) looks very closely and with suspision to kitcars coming from the UK. Partly because in the past there have been false registrations.
So cars with an older registration already on the continent are the best but very hard to find. I sold my Hawk in 2011 for 40.000,-- Euros which was a very good price at that time. Even ten it was hard to register a Hawk, but luckily i got an age related registration on my Hawk on 1988 year of the Alfa 164 were the engine came out. Shame tis is no more possible :(
Sometimes i regret selling my Hawk, but then again i am building a nice car now and enjoying the build a lot, although i doubt i wil ever be able to drive it on the road. Maybe make it electric that would mean no enviromental tax :mad:
Sorry guys just a bit frustrated sometimes, but i decided to finish the build od the 037, lets just see whats possible after that :cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Normb666
What happened to the Alpine A110?
Almost there Colin: nearly finished, just a windshield to be replaced and some small stuff: https://www.facebook.com/pimsalpine/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Mayers
On auction now in BAT here... anyone tempted for a new build ? :cool:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/fe...6-dino-engine/