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Hi
Currently building a 1970 240z. however i'd like to build a LB car next.
are there many toyota engined cars? Any pro's/cons? Whats a normal build cost?
I did build a couple of kits before, this was the 'quickest'!
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...d-legend/24422
Sounds like you have the right skill set!
Welcome.
I get the Sevenesque cars but jeez they are ugly things.
Now you are talking though, moving up through a 240Z to a,Stratos. A thing of beauty!
There are quite a few Toyota powered cars appearing now from LB, but I don't have any experience of them. Someone will be along with more knowledge.
The impression I get is that they are more expensive to build although probably no more so if you measure it on "bang per buck", than an Alfa engined car.
I'm not moving up from a 240z to a LB :)Quote:
Originally Posted by john
I'm interested to see where the extra cost for the toyota builds comes from? Anyone know what costs more?
Hi James, welcome to the club!
In answer to your question regarding costs, if you do some digging you'll find sourcing an Alfa motor and box is fairly cheap, if you just want those items from a breaker, although you'd be better advised to buy a complete donor car with a V5 - that way you can get the ECU and other gubbins, plus you'll be able to get an age-related reg. plate when you register the car. Having said that, the number of donors is shrinking and prices for them are rising as they edge into "classic" territory.
The Toyota motor is a harder beast to find - it's only fitted to one Toyo/Lexus car here in the UK, and it's mated to an auto box. It's also present in the back of the Lotus Evora and Exige S, usually supercharged, and fitted with a Toyota-sourced 6-speed transmission (the EA60), which requires an adapter plate and other stuff. Finding a Lotus in a scrapyard ain't easy, and it's not cheap either - I found one a couple of years back and there wasn't much change from £8K... You could go for a 5-speed box from an MR2 Turbo but you need to machine the block to fit it, and find a suitable flywheel/clutch.
For the LB installation, you'll need a dedicated ECU - LB use one from SCS. Then there are the twin fuel tanks and pumps, and the uprated radiator, and...and...
So you can see how the costs mount, compared with using a standard Alfa motor. But, you get the power as standard, and the parts should be bombproof. You can tweak the Alfa engine to about 300bhp but it costs a load, as John says above. You pays yer money, etc... :)
Thanks!
Whats the model code for the exact engine? I think its the way i'd prefer to go. As it'll just be more reliable/make more power as standard. Its the little bits i'd like investigate. Building a proper Alfa engine must balance out the cost?
Yes, that's about it. When you say a "proper" Alfa motor then I'm assuming you mean something approaching 270-300 hp which they are capable of. Yes, when you spend the money to get that far with an Alfa then you would certainly be getting in the same ballpark as a standard Toyota? Very probably. I've driven cars with 190 and 270 respectively.
One more fun than the other? Not really.
Depends what you want from the car and what your budget is.
Items that you have to decide before the build starts:
1. What is the purpose of the car
2. Build budget
There are many people who have been very happy just dropping in a standard refreshed Alfa Engine and Gearbox which keeps the total build cost's down..............and there are idiots like me who have spent an absolute fortune doing a total rebuild on the Alfa Engine and then bolting on a Sadev Sequential Gearbox.........To be honest if I was starting again I would take a different approach and go for a Toyota Engine as you get a lot more bang for your money even in it's standard configuration.
Things I want...
something to go out for B road blasts
Reliability
Something that could do a long trip if needed
Noise
Revs
I Love the 3.2 alfa engines, however I know they need a bit more care. I don't want/need over 300hp.
That's the same list as me. I've got a new, but bog standard 2.5 Alfa!
are they still about?
It's actually the same list as me as well, perhaps without the "long trip if needed" aspect, unless that means without breaking down!! Maybe I'm just a martyr :D
I've gone for the Alfa 3.2 Engine plus some of the LB standard mods so am ending up around 300bhp.
On a totally personal level (so no flames please) I wouldn't have gone down the route of getting a Stratos replica if they came only with the Toyota engine. My mental image of the car has a screaming N/A classic Italian engine as part of the overall package. I appreciate, perhaps more than most, the power, performance and noise you get from a supercharged Toyota engine sitting behind your head but it was never a tick-box for me. Thankfully other views on the subject are available leading to an even wider choice of cars and builds all round for everyone so a win / win.
The main problem for anyone wanting a car is the wait to get it. That's keeping 2nd hand prices fairly frothy.
I understand the engine thing. I'd be interested to see if there's any 'new' engines around. Once I actually work out 'donor' cost that'll push one way or another.
What sort of wait is it? I'm not scared of the wait.
I'm sure I was at school when I put my deposit down and I retired about 10 years ago.
I wasn't scared of the wait either. Mind you, back then I wasn't scared of drinking a glass of water before going to bed.
18 months Hawk, longer for LB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by renmure
hahaha. Brilliant.
I'll see what they say. 18months would be perfect.
Looking forward to see what donor parts are needed.
There was a bunch of new Alfa 156 spec crate engines around 12 months ago or more but they've all gone now.
Don't forget you really need a donor vehicle and V5 for registration purposes unless you go the 100% new components route and a subsequent brand new registration.
But you knew that already!
Yes, the joys of IVA and registration! how much were the great engines?
As a rough guide, is it just one or two models as donors?
The crate engines were on ebay. Partsworld at Chesterfield.
They started off at £2k and worked their way down. I bought one at £1200 but I think some lucky sods got them as low as £995?
My reckoning was you would have to pay 6 or 700 quid just to refresh a V6 before dropping it in so I was happy enough to pay what I did.
I think somebody bought the last few engines off them as a package and then maybe tried to flog them on at a sizeable profit as one appeared on ebay at £3k.
As Jim says some folks, me included, think a Stratos replica needs an Italian V6. But I've never been sure why.
Actually, with all this talk of Alfas and Toyotas/Lotuses...Loti...English sports cars, the other options seem to have been forgotten... because you could use a Ferrari engine and box - LB have just shipped out such a beast, built using a Mondial as a donor. Not even remotely cheap, but it made around 308bhp on the dyno, not bad for an old 2-valve V8 motor! Or what about a proper Dino engine? There was one on Ebay recently at about £30K.
Alternatively, if you're of an engineeringy bent, you could just use whatever power unit takes your fancy, so long as it'd fit in. You'd have to do a fair bit of measuring and fabricating of mountings, plus sort an exhaust, ECU, etc etc etc. but it can be done!
As regards my own choice, I was originally going for a bog-standard Alfa 156 donor (2.5-litre, 195bhp). It makes for a nicely-balanced car, enough power to make it quick but not fast, but with thoughts of it being upgradeable to a 3.2 at a later date. That all changed when a few things came together by some sort of fluke and I realised I could afford to spend quite a bit more, so it got upgraded to the Toyota 2GR-FE option and again, I dropped on an ex-Lotus NOS motor still sitting on its engine stand. I'm not bothered about screaming, sky-high revs on the road in a car - I've got bikes for that. So the thought of a torquey supercharged 3.5-litre works for me! Each to their own, though - there's no right or wrong decision here. I'm not in the "must be an Italian engine" camp as the vast majority of the car's British, so as long as it's not an air-cooled VW lump I don't care ;)
I think the best thing you can do to glean info is look around this forum and see what people are doing/have done, and also contact both Hawk and LB for the latest prices and lead times, and then it's down to what works for you. Doesn't mean you can't ask questions here, though, but it's a good place to start. Good luck and have fun! :)
My experience is that the V6 engines are very tough. But maybe I got lucky. My donor was 175k miles form a 166. No noises and good oil pressure. When it was taken to bits and checked, nothing was worn. Everything checked out and you could even still see the honing marks on the bores! But I still completely rebuilt it and had it balanced. Not cheap! If you want a breakdown of the price just let me know. I replaced tappets, valve springs, mains, rings, all gaskets/seals etc. Had the heads skimmed and fitted a lighter flywheel and had the whole thing balanced. If I was doing it again I'd still rods and forged pistons in I guess.
Alfa GT's - with the 3.2 lump in them - are still relatively cheap. 3k-ish?
Cheers,
Hedge
LPH - I would be interested to see your 166 engine rebuild breakdown. I am just about to do the same. Did you use all the standard electronics or go aftermarket. Who did you use for your engine rebuild ?Quote:
Originally Posted by LPH_UK
thanks
pab
Sorry, only just noticed the reply. Seen me a pm with your email on and I'll fire across the spreadsheet.
Used a guy in Bromsgrove who usually specialised in a-series and old V8s (his engines have had many podiums at Goodwood FOS) he was a contact through a mate.
COmpleltley new electronics - Motec 130 and full customer motorsport spec loom - not cheap! :(