Busso V6 engine numbers

I am gathering info (and the necessary proof) required for the IVA for the age of my engine. Unfortunately I dont have much info on the provenance of my engine - other than that it came from a 3ltr GTV. I am also making enquiries at Autolusso (South) where I bought it as a re-built engine.

The block casting says "3.0 C 24V 974" but the engine number is indistinct.

When the engine was cleaned, over-enthusiastic scrubbing appears to have obscured the number.

My reading of the number - before I had investigated the issue - was:

AK 46405 002542

However I think this should read :

AR 16105 002542 (or possibly 002512) This would indicate that it was a CF3 engine (although not configured as such now)

Any thoughts on this? Where should I go for a definitive listing of Alfa Busso engine numbers ? Will also need manufacturers Power and torque figures and top speed.

Many thanks in anticipation

Peter

Maybe Autolusso might still have the paperwork that came with the car - it'll be on the V5 if they have.

Try this
https://www.alfaowner.com/threads/al...v6-jtd.194264/

Also for the power etc look at wikepedia
Gordon

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Maybe Autolusso might still have the paperwork that came with the car

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Leigh - unfortunately they dont but I'm still pressing them for more info.

Thanks also to Gordon for the Alfa Owner reference - I already saw this but was wondering if there is something even more definitive as I'm not sure if the IVA inspectors would deem this to be sufficient (unless you have experience of this?)

I just checked the V5 from my donor (166) and it only has the last 6 digits on there. No letters.

Hi Leigh - the V5 might only give the last 6 numbers but on your 166 engine block there should be one of the following codes in front of the V5 6 digits : - AR 36101 for a CF3 or AR 34301 for a CF2 - according to the Alfa Owner codes referenced by Gordon in this thread. This engine number is on a horizontal surface below the thermostat housing at the gearbox end of the engine.

I wish I'd photographed mine before installation as the testers will need proof of age of the engine and it's not so easy to access now! (and I dont have the V5)

I have a feeling I may well have the same issue now as I forgot about making a note of mine!

But as I know mine is a 1998 166 with a CF2 engine I guess my engine code is AR34301.

What 'proof' do IVA need? I have the V5 for the car that the engine came out of.

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Originally Posted by Stratos Fear

Hi Leigh - the V5 might only give the last 6 numbers but on your 166 engine block there should be one of the following codes in front of the V5 6 digits : - AR 36101 for a CF3 or AR 34301 for a CF2 - according to the Alfa Owner codes referenced by Gordon in this thread. This engine number is on a horizontal surface below the thermostat housing at the gearbox end of the engine.

I wish I'd photographed mine before installation as the testers will need proof of age of the engine and it's not so easy to access now! (and I dont have the V5)

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Peter/Leigh
This is my 2.5l CF2 engine. See photo below where you will see the "shelf" with the engine number is not hidden by thermostat housing. Hope yours are the same and helps? Attachment 167750

Thnaks Ade, it will be there, it's just getting access to it to be able to read it with everything bolted to the engine!

It’s reasonably visible once fully plumbed Leigh, although you might need a camera! As long as the numbers match(!) donor V5 is fine. That’s what I’ll be using for mine.

Yes thanks Ade - I'll have to try and photograph it as I dont have the V5 - and then I will point to it so the Tester can see where it is - but not sure how visible it will be without close examination.

Can you take an impression of it with plasticine when the engine is all built up? If that works take a mirror so you can read the reversed imprint easily?

Can you get an age related plate without the V5? I thought that was a requirement to prove the age of the donor and without one you'd be issued a "Q" plate?

Guy

Interesting point Guy about the plasticine impression. I will try that but the impression is feint - hence me mis reading the AR for AK and the "1" digits as "4's". Also if I can get a clear reading of the engine number and the block casting date (which is very clear as Oct 2002 ) I'm hoping to avoid the dreaded Q plate. I do have a receipt for the engine from Autolusso - but nothing on the receipt to indicate provenance - although am still trying to get more detail from them.

I doubt you'll have any luck with Autolusso after all this time, chances are they broke the car for parts and declared it scrapped in which case I think you're done. Fingers crossed they can come up with something though.

It might be time to consider buying a similar vintage (running/MOT'd) vehicle for a few hundred and telling DVLA that the engine appears to have been changed? You may need "proof" in the form of photos though if the DVLA gets antsy! Then use that as your donor vehicle once you get the V5 back. Or actually kill it, power wash the motor and drop it into the Stratos for the IVA test? Then, once registered put your intended motor back in?

The things we consider doing to avoid a Q plate?

I managed to get a statement from Autolusso declaring my engine was sold to me from a car that they had scrapped. They dont have the V5 , nor can they recall the Reg No but I'm hoping this letter will be sufficient - along with the invoice for the re-build.

Incidentally photographing the engine number (which I should have done before I put it in the car) was a bit of a challenge but I got there in the end. See if you can spot the number :

Attachment 16776

That tests the eyes doesn't it! I get AR16105 002542

How about trying to get a uniform sheen on the base material with a Scotchbrite or similar pad, moving in one direction? The engraving marks are all there but really hard to resolve from the confusing background. A pad wouldn't remove enough material to risk losing the marks but should improve contrast.

I've managed to look at it - it's quite easy with the removable bulkhead piece in the LB.

I can see the AR34301 which makes sense as it's a CF2 I66 engine. However I can't make out the numbers - but these are on the V5 so I can piece it together.

However will IVA want to be able to read it from the engine?

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Originally Posted by LPH_UK

However will IVA want to be able to read it from the engine?

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Wait a few weeks and I'll yell ya ;)

Is there anything you can wipe over the surface, wipe off and leave colour in the stamped numbers? Paint probably too thick? How about a colour matching polish? Anything that might help the inspector on the day?
Guy

Regarding improving visibility of the numbers - I've tried pencil graphite, permanent marker, oil and then heating with a paint stripper, etc etc. However the photogrph you can see is the best result I've got and this was with a photoshop type filter. When I took my photographs (with my I-phone) and illuminated by an LED torch, the numbers did not show up at all (to the naked eye) whatever I did. I decided to look at each of my I-phone photos on a large screen - and surprisingly I could read them. The one I attached has a pale blue filter which enhances the digits just about enough to be legible. I am going to supply this photo to the IVA tester. I would imagine they are not expecting to be able to identify each engine by it's individual numbers - if there is an accompanying V5 document. However since I dont have one I think my evidence will need to be a bit more substantive. To get this photo I had to drain down my radiator , disconnect the hoses and air filter and MAF and sundry knock sensors and other electrics.

I'm hoping I wont have to do this on Test day!

Thanks for all the suggestions - and Chris you read the number correctly . (I was initially confused by the continental "1's" mistaking them for 4's - and the "R" from the initial AR is rather stylised ) The only other thing I need to try and get is an image of my block casting date - which I know is October 2002 - and am looking at getting hold of an endoscope . I'm thinking I can photograph the on-screen image.

Does anyone happen to have an endoscope they could rent out ?

In order to read engine or chassis numbers paint with acid, leave for 10-15 minutes and it'll be as clear as day (don't forget to thoroughly wash off afterwards)

They do look for the engine number, but if it’s difficult to see they accept a photo. Once you are confident it’s correct, why not just refresh it with some number/letter stamps? Avoid the angst of a potential fail for something so daft.

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Originally Posted by NoCorseChris

They do look for the engine number, but if it’s difficult to see they accept a photo. Once you are confident it’s correct, why not just refresh it with some number/letter stamps? Avoid the angst of a potential fail for something so daft.

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It's best not to mess with the engraved number.
Even if its faint it is better that it looks original.
Once you try to re stamp it it can look like it has been tampered with and the examiner may no longer accept that that is the actual number for the engine.

Pete, if you're looking for an endoscope, Lidl or Aldi sometimes have them (believe it or not). I got one a while back - it's got a small mirror attachment (for seeing backwards if necessary, behind the camera head), a light for illuminating dark areas (such as engine interiors!), blah blah. The neck, or whatever you want to call it (the bendy bit?) is about 3 feet long. It cost about £30...even had a set of batteries included! :)

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Originally Posted by Normb666

Pete, if you're looking for an endoscope, Lidl or Aldi sometimes have them (believe it or not). I got one a while back - it's got a small mirror attachment (for seeing backwards if necessary, behind the camera head), a light for illuminating dark areas (such as engine interiors!), blah blah. The neck, or whatever you want to call it (the bendy bit?) is about 3 feet long. It cost about £30...even had a set of batteries included! :)

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Ann Summers do something similar but you have to buy the batteries separately.
Err, so I've heard.

Or, you can buy small diameter USB cameras on ebay, with illumination on the end.

Thanks again to everyone for the suggestions on the engine number. However I think I'll leave it as it is - at least I now have a photograph that is (just about) legible.

Also for the endoscope - looks like I may have to buy one !

Can you ring the test centre and ask if they have one? I'll bet it's not the first time they'll have been presented with a car with an obscured number?
Guy

If they can't confirm the engine number then they simply emissions test the engine to current standards. Mark E with the Zenith replica had something similar where the engine number didn't match the donor V5 that the engine came from.
Because Peter hasn't got a Donor V5 to prove the age of the engine this is the same standard as he would be tested to anyway.
The limits on this are lambda 0.97 to 1.03, hydrocarbons upto 200ppm and CO2 up to 0.2%
With the rebuilt engine and catalysed exhaust these should not be a problem. The only difference even if the pre 2001 V5 was present would be that the CO2 limit would be 0.3%

I just used a usb camera to try and read mine. Even using that it was bloody difficult, had to look at the video 4 or 5 times to come up with a number. Then checked it against the V5 and I was right.

I guess I can use the video as evidence, but not easy to interpret.

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Originally Posted by Stratos Fear

Does anyone happen to have an endoscope they could rent out ?

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Peter, just bought a cheapy on that well known retail auction site <£10 that plugs into smartphone. Away until Saturday, but will let you know how it works when I am back home if that helps?
Cheers!
Ade

Hi Ade - yes that would be very helpful - thanks P

Hi Craig - yes that was my understanding - and I will shortly be taking my car to an MOT station to check the emissions in advance of the IVA - as I know how even a small air leak in the exhaust system can result in a failure.

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Originally Posted by Strat Fan

It's best not to mess with the engraved number.
Even if its faint it is better that it looks original.
Once you try to re stamp it it can look like it has been tampered with and the examiner may no longer accept that that is the actual number for the engine.

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Good point, hadn’t considered that.

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Originally Posted by Stratos Fear

Hi Ade - yes that would be very helpful - thanks P

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Peter, just sent a PM.
Ade

Thanks Ade - see PM reply. I bought a cheap unit and in due course will post some pictures.