Litton (Corse) Front Suspension Question

Attachment 1706Attachment 1707Attachment 1708

I was working on the front suspension when I came across a problem/question. I believe the part (the black part) is called a swing arm. I have looked in the manual and all the pictures that I have and can not figure out how this piece gets attached to the chassis. I get the idea that I might be missing a part that goes over the swing arm and attaches to the chassis by the two holes shown in the picture without the swing arm in place. If that is so, I'm going to need a source for those parts as I will need two, one for each side.

This is what you need (in the picture), but if you don't have it, there might be a problem sourcing it.
You would have to have them made up locally, but not difficult I'd say. Stainless I believe, but I might be wrong (it has been known...)

Corky,
sorry that's not a brilliant picture is it? Best I've got tho'.

Maybe a little fabrication would yield you a better method. Convert to Rose Joints at the chassis ends, or more Spax bushes, and do away with the ball joints.

Bit of a rushed reply, but that ball joint should press into the hole in the chassis from the front & then have a plate over the top to keep it in position..... secured with two bolts.

On my way to work now, so hopefully someone else can post a photo

Ok so i was a bit slow in replying......................

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Originally Posted by turbonutter

Bit of a rushed reply, but that ball joint should press into the hole in the chassis from the front & then have a plate over the top to keep it in position..... secured with two bolts.

On my way to work now, so hopefully someone else can post a photo

Ok so i was a bit slow in replying......................

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You must work the grave yard shift. It seems like the hole is too small for the diameter of the ball joint. I'll go back out there a look again, but I would still need tha part that John showed, but that shouldn't be to hard to fabricate.

Well, I'm almost too embarassed to reply, the rubber around the ball joint is much wider than the hole, so without getting right up close, it appeared the it wouldn't fit in the hole. I common screw driver used the press the rubber gently through that hole and all of a sudden, the rest follows it through. Now I just need to fabricate the plate that hold the ball joint in place. Problem solved, thanks.

Corky

Attachment 1860

I have test fitted the left side of the front suspension, I left the brake pieces off for the photo. As you can see, there is a fairly large angle in the front caster. It is adjusted just about as far to the rear as I dare.

Hi I too have a Litton Corse and i am sure my top wishbones are nothing like the ones in your picture, can you post a picture looking down on wishbone from above I will have a look and see if I can find a picture of mine.
Andy

Attachment 1862 Not the best picture I could find but you should be able to see top wishbone angles.
Andy

Have you got a view on that from above, Corky?
Should look something like this:

I think your top wishbones might be wrong.
Did they come with the kit?
It looks to me as if the rear tube of the wishbone is at 90' to the chassis, whereas it should rake forward by some degrees. Can't remember the value off the top of my head.
I have a drawing of the correct "I" wishbone, but only hard copy, not electronic.
I can try to extract from it some check dimensions for you, but it'll have to be tomorrow as it's at the workshop.
Andy's photo looks like an "S" chassis wishbone. Was that a transitional chassis between "S" and "I", Andy?
It was built by some guy who was working for Steve Greenwood at the time was'nt it?

When you look at the wishbones in the attached picture those tubes don't look at 90'. They look like they're running forward, as they should be.

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Originally Posted by JOHN

"Andy's photo looks like an "S" chassis wishbone. Was that a transitional chassis between "S" and "I", Andy?
It was built by some guy who was working for Steve Greenwood at the time was'nt it?

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No idea ! I assumed the S and I chassis were the same at the front !
But back to the wishbones the angles do look wrong to me, however it is hard to tell from these photo's either way something is not right !

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Originally Posted by john

When you look at the wishbones in the attached picture those tubes don't look at 90'. They look like they're running forward, as they should be.

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Where did you get that picture, it looks like a picture of my parts, right down to the used parts. My kit came to the USA back in in 2001 (or around then), it was order by a person named Reed.

Attachment 1867

Here is the picture Reed took of the parts he sold to the person that I purchased the kit from. Doesn't it looks familiar John??

Yes, it's the same picture.
It was me who put the kit in the crate to come to the USA, Corky. I don't accept any responsibility for what is right or what is wrong tho'!! I just put in the box what I was given.
I think it was 2004 or 2005.
I'll dig the wishbone drawing out and get back to you later.

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Originally Posted by john

Yes, it's the same picture.
It was me who put the kit in the crate to come to the USA, Corky. I don't accept any responsibility for what is right or what is wrong tho'!! I just put in the box what I was given.
I think it was 2004 or 2005.
I'll dig the wishbone drawing out and get back to you later.

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Thanks, how could I hold you responsible, the kit was made up of pieces that were not part of the original kit built back in the 90's. If there is anyone to blame, it would be Lionel.

Corky

I am amazed how many people on this board have actually had a hand in getting my kit from inital fabrication to sitting in my shop. New ones show up all the time. I wish I could get the orininal parts back from that car in Japan.

Check dimensions. Hope this makes sense as I can't think of a way to upload the drawing I have. I've even tried to take a photograph, but you can't then read off the dimensions.
Here goes.
Take a line through the centres of the inboard pivots. Draw a line perpendicular to this through the centre line of the outer balljoint.
The steel bushes which house the Spax bushes at the inboard end of your wishbone should be 30mm long, each one.
The dimension between the bushes should be 218mm. Therefore the overall spread of the wishbone at the inner end should be 278mm.
Going back to our perpendicular line drawn through the balljoint centre, the "forward" bush (inner end) should be 40mm forward of this line. The rear most bush (inner end) should be 178mm to the rear of the line. 178+40= 218 (the distance between the bushes).
Centre line of the balljoint should be 230mm outboard of the inner pivots centreline.

Attachment 1892
Here is a different view, looks cloise at the lower arm. Shouldn't the lower arm be straight out from the attach point? I thing the swing arm is too short, since if I were to place the lower arm straight out from the chassis, the swing arm would not reach the lower arm. I might have it lengthened.

Corky

That doesn't look healthy!

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Originally Posted by ChrisCar6

That doesn't look healthy!

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Good eyes, I never noticed that, I'll have a closer look tomorrow.

Corky,

Replace the top wishbones with some made from 1" CDS tube, the dimensions of the ones you have look fine.
The excessive castor issue you have is caused by the trailing link being too short, the TCA should fit perpendicular to the CL of the car & this should give about 5 degrees of static castor. Get a new trailing link machined or get the existing ones extended professionally but be aware that the diameter of the trailing link cannot be increased where it exits the chassis subframe at the front otherwise it will foul on full bump. Whilst you are performing surgery you could swap the trailing link ball joint to a rod end bearing.

Regards

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Originally Posted by Strat Fan

Corky,

Replace the top wishbones with some made from 1" CDS tube, the dimensions of the ones you have look fine.
The excessive castor issue you have is caused by the trailing link being too short, the TCA should fit perpendicular to the CL of the car & this should give about 5 degrees of static castor. Get a new trailing link machined or get the existing ones extended professionally but be aware that the diameter of the trailing link cannot be increased where it exits the chassis subframe at the front otherwise it will foul on full bump. Whilst you are performing surgery you could swap the trailing link ball joint to a rod end bearing.

Regards

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I do have a rod end bearing on the lower arm (TCA), that is why it can move that far forward, if I still had the old bush assembly in there, I wouldn't have been able to attach the swing arm (trailing link). I'm a little confused about your comments "be aware that the diameter of the trailing link cannot be increased where it exits the chassis subframe at the front otherwise it will foul on full bump" Are you talking about the ball joint or the rod? I was thinking about cutting the rod in the middle, then sleeving it, then welding the sleeve to the rod.

Corky

What Craig is saying there is that the front trailing link can foul on bottom of the the chassis tube (25x25mm) when the suspension is on full bump, so keep it's diameter as low as practicable.
Actually I'm not entirely sure that it's true on those trailing links with the balljoints, because the forward pivot point on those links you have has more clearance than that on the later chassis's. Either way they are definitely not long enough as the TCA's should be very definitely be straight out from the pick-up points.
Just a thought, did you fit the trailing links through from the front of the chassis brackets, or just butt them up to the bracket from the rear?
As far as I know (might be wrong on this...Craig will advise I'm sure) they should just butt up from the rear and then be secured by the bolted bracket we were talking about earlier in the thread. That would make them a touch longer, but maybe still not enough.
Can't see the detail on that from your photograph. You would have had to disassemble the link to do this anyway?
PM me your address and I'll mail you a hard copy of the wishbone, TCA and trailing link chassis brackets's. Oh, and the trailing link itself.

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Originally Posted by john

What Craig is saying there is that the front trailing link can foul on bottom of the the chassis tube (25x25mm) when the suspension is on full bump, so keep it's diameter as low as practicable.
Actually I'm not entirely sure that it's true on those trailing links with the balljoints, because the forward pivot point on those links you have has more clearance than that on the later chassis's. Either way they are definitely not long enough as the TCA's should be very definitely be straight out from the pick-up points.
Just a thought, did you fit the trailing links through from the front of the chassis brackets, or just butt them up to the bracket from the rear?
As far as I know (might be wrong on this...Craig will advise I'm sure) they should just butt up from the rear and then be secured by the bolted bracket we were talking about earlier in the thread. That would make them a touch longer, but maybe still not enough.
Can't see the detail on that from your photograph. You would have had to disassemble the link to do this anyway?
PM me your address and I'll mail you a hard copy of the wishbone, TCA and trailing link chassis brackets's. Oh, and the trailing link itself.

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PM sent. I put the tailing links in from the front, not butted up to the rear side. But even if it was butted up to the front it wouldn't give enough length that I need. Today I disconnected the trailing link at the TCA, then positioned the TCA where it should be, then measure from the center of the hole in the end of the link to the center of the hole in the TCA. The distance was just under 1.5 inches or around 38mm. I'm really not sure which way would be better, I would feel better if one method gave a positive pressure in an unweighted position, as far as I see, neither really does. I still need to fabricate the retainer.

just checked the length of my trailing links and the rod without ends measures 335mm.
your wishbone angles look fine now I have seen photo
hope this helps
Andy

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Originally Posted by Madham

just checked the length of my trailing links and the rod without ends measures 335mm.
your wishbone angles look fine now I have seen photo
hope this helps
Andy

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Thanks Andy, i guess I need to understand exactly what you measured. I just measured the rod only (the part that has threaded end, but not the ball joint), it measured 268mm in length.

330-335mm is the standard length of the Corse "I" Front Trailing Link.(Bar only)
This is the version where it takes a 1/2" UNF L/H threaded Rod End in one end and the M14 R/H Thread Swing Bolt in the other. It's machined out of 19mm Dia bar. Can't remember what that equates too in overall length, centre to centre, rod end to swing bolt.
Looks like you have "S" type trailing links there Corky, for which I have a figure of 285mm long. IIRC that includes the balljoint. (Measured to the ball centre.)

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Originally Posted by john

330-335mm is the standard length of the Corse "I" Front Trailing Link.(Bar only)
This is the version where it takes a 1/2" UNF L/H threaded Rod End in one end and the M14 R/H Thread Swing Bolt in the other. It's machined out of 19mm Dia bar. Can't remember what that equates too in overall length, centre to centre, rod end to swing bolt.
Looks like you have "S" type trailing links there Corky, for which I have a figure of 285mm long. IIRC that includes the balljoint. (Measured to the ball centre.)

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That could be true, I'm sure that Lionel just pulled parts that he had and didn't check to see if they were the correct parts. Looks like I either get a new set made to the correct lenght or sleeves the ones that I have.

Retrieved from Supersite!

This was the parts for my rear tie rods, essentially would be the same for your fronts.
Except you might be metric.
And you'd source them over there!

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Parts for two tie rods from Rally Design:-

2 x 1/2 Bore x 1/2 UNF MALE, R/H £36.56
2 x 7/16 Bore x 1/2 UNF MALE, L/H £36.70
2 x 1/2 LH Imperial Male Locknut £0.96
2 x 1/2 RH Imperial Male Locknut £0.42
1 x Tube for 1/2\" UNF Inserts 1m Long £5.02
2 x 1/2 LH UNF Threaded Insert £4.92
2 x 1/2 RH UNF Threaded Insert £4.64
2 x 1/2 Bore Protection Boot £4.68

Total £121-49 inc P&P @ £10

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Looking only now to Tipo158's 6th post of 2012 on this particular thread (see p.1), am left wondering what make & model are these front hub & bearing assemblies in his photo - and how are you supposed to (or even can you?) use that whopping great, hexagonal centre 'nut' to adjust them?

They look like c.48-50mm diameter: blooming enormous, which begs the question where could you source an OE allen key that's big enough to fit, anyway?

(Seeing as I've always wondered, that's all…...)

Ford Granada Scorpio as used by Corse "I", Ultima & Gd.
The inner hexagonal drive is not required, simply hold the drive flange/upright across the wheel studs in a vice & the tighten/untighten the nut as required which is located under the dust cover on the other side of the hub.

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Originally Posted by Strat Fan

Ford Granada Scorpio as used by Corse "I", Ultima & Gd.
Inner haxagonal drive is not required, simply hold across the studs a. Ice & tighten the but on the other side in a vice.

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Thanks for being so prompt replying, Craig - I read this as meaning you have to remove the upright containing the bearing, complete, then locate it in a vice, where there's a nut accessible on the reverse side you can tighten-up while it's being held in the vice? (Is that correct, and what size is that nut?

Thank you again…..

I've reworded my post above so that it reads in English this time! (apologies for the confusion, I will revert to using the computer for typing rather than the mobile!)
I don't know what size the nut is as it's a few years since I've assembled that type of upright.