Lancia Rally 037 successor

Hi All,

To repeat my introduction from the newly joint section, my name is Nik, based in the south of England, middle age automotive design engineer. I was drawn to the forum few years ago by a former colleague of mine whose Stratos build is in a fairly advanced state of progress, while I am at the beginning of mine. I have seen few threads not directly related to Stratos builds, and in the absence of a dedicated forum, I dared starting a thread of my own outside of the Stratos realm, though it is currently more of a statement of intent rather than actual physical build, still in the dreaming stage.

To provide a bit of a background, my favourite rally car is the Lancia Rally 037, it was a love at first sight, when as a young lad I saw it on TV at the start of the 1983 Monte Carlo and then a year later in person during an European Championship rally. Ever since Group B ended and with it, the international rally career of the 037, I’ve been thinking about coming up with a successor, a sort of MkII version. As, with most of us, life happened, this dream took a bit of a back seat, though I kept “revisiting” it from time to time. Few years ago I finally went beyond the (very amateurish) hand sketches and started putting ideas to CAD. Three years ago I got to a stage where I was happy with the styling:

https://www.rally037.com/16model/CAD...odywork_10.JPG

That was followed by creating models of various scales (starting with 1/100 and currently ending with 1/6) and purpose (static, Scalextric, rc nitro), image of the palette so far:

https://www.rally037.com/allmodels/2...2010_small.jpg

My intention is that next is a full scale road going one, but it needs to wait its turn, as a home project is first on the list (strongly encouraged by my better half). The positive is it gives me time to work out all the important details of the build (or just give up) as I would really dislike cutting metal before I have proper idea what I am after (old professional habit). Actually at one stage I even dreamt about persuading an investor to make a small fortune (starting from a larger one of course) and taking the project to “the next level”, but we all know how that goes, so if I want to get it build, there is only one way!

Starting with the engine, I don’t think there is much hope that I can go with mechanically supercharged one similar to the original, so ideally I would like to source a current-ish Civic Type R one - they are an incredible bit of kit (having had a chance to drive one in a Civic) and should suit the personality of the car perfectly. I am even tempted to get one sooner rather than later, though probably not a good idea with the building work around the house. Gearbox wise, one option is to stick with the one from the same vehicle, but I need to research further what my gearshift mechanism options are as I would hate a misbehaving one due to the fact that it needs to negotiate its way around the centrally mounted unit, though I am sure others (some notable cars here) have already dealt with the same issue. I need to do my homework on that one. Short of a standard gearbox with transversely mounted engine, there are all the other usual options for a longitudinal unit. We’ll see.

On the chassis/frame side, most likely candidate is of course a spaceframe, but I have few ideas as to how to connect the tubes – welding is probably just an all right skill of mine so I would like to consider another option that avoids thermal distortion, but it has its own challenges. I will expand on this in a further post and will most likely start with making a test piece and checking its behaviour and structural integrity.

Wheels and tyres is another choice to be made, I really like the appearance of wide rear tyres and will probably go for the widest I can lay my hands on 😊, appreciating this is not without its drawbacks. So something like this proportion wise:

https://www.rally037.com/16model/Run...64_small_2.jpg

There is such a vast pool of knowledge on this forum, so I am sure there will be plenty of suggestions and advice. Once again please excuse the slightly hollow thread for the time being as it will take a long time before there is a physical progress. I just hope we are still allowed to drive on the roads (as opposed to only have self-driving cars) by the time I build the car.

On a related subject, while I have been taking my time year after year, I can see an Italian company is now ready to release their own interpretation for a modern day 037 (mixed with 038/Integralle features in their own words), though I would say it appears to be neither restomod (or such like) nor very modern, it rather reminds me of my first hand sketches in the school notebook all those years back, but of course taste is a personal thing and there are many people that like what they do:

https://www.google.com/search?q=kime...iw=782&bih=434

Incidentally, a restomod 037 would be something to my taste, but way beyond my pocket. I also really appreciate the work Carteroni and Mick Covill are doing, genuinely impressed by their creations.

Thanks for reading,
Nik

Hi Nik,

Nice work on the models, like your interpretation of the Lancia 037.
I am building a Mick Covill based 037 at the moment. Although i am not much of an engineer just a hobbiist.
Heres my buils on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Pims-Lancia...82898468405402
Heres another page from Nial Evans: https://www.facebook.com/groups/lancia037project
Hope to see more of your project in the future
Cheers Pim

Cheers Pim, some great progress and resource there, thanks for sharing. Best of luck with your project, I will look forward to seeing it completed.
Nik

Really interesting project Nik - can we see some profile shots with the canopies closed please. Design - from what I can see of it - looks really good and a great modern take on the original.

looks like someone else is working on this.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...p-kimera-evo37

Only £414k.......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LPH_UK

Only £414k.......

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Plus VAT. That's what buggers it for me....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gordon Caro

looks like someone else is working on this.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...p-kimera-evo37

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Gordon, from what I can gather, these guys are aiming at a restomod version of the car (mine aimed at a MkII version), though if I was to do a restomod I would have stayed much closer to the original as it is a stunner of a car already in my view. Not a cheap car as Leigh pointed out, but I agree with Guy, the real deal breaker is having to pay VAT on top :D

Peter, thank you, really appreciate your encouragement, please see few more images below:

At last year's Rally Legend San Marino
https://www.rally037.com/16model/Run/IMG_1888_small.jpg

https://www.rally037.com/16model/Run...12_small_3.jpg

Back home
https://www.rally037.com/16model/Run...2345_small.jpg

Going testing
https://www.rally037.com/16model/Run...03_small_2.jpg

- Yep - that looks really good Nik - you've obviously spent a lot of time finessing the detail - good luck with the project !

Thank you Peter, genuinely appreciated, it is a real labour of love for me.

Attachment 18234


https://www.hotcars.com/first-photos...aB03rYDAyejw8s

Hi Andy, we have mentioned Kimora's project couple of times further up - they claim their project is aimed at a restomod of the 037, while the task I set myself is what a contemporary MkII version would look like, similar to the way the Escort, the Mini and numerous other models have evolved. If I was to do a restomod, I would have stayed significantly closer to the original styling, tweak tiny details and exchange certain components for modern more reliable ones, while Kimora have strayed too much away from the original for my liking. Or it could be the fact that their styling reminds me so much of the state of my project back in 1987 and the not too talented hand sketches in my school books :).

One interesting thing is that according to their press release, they have involved Abarth people working there in the 80's on the original Lancia branded models, but the names mentioned means they were more involved in the models following the 037, i.e. the S4 and the Delta Gr.A, and their influence is evident in some of the styling details (Integrale wheel arches) and engine solution (mechanical and turbo chargers). Also, although I haven't analysed it yet, but just visually (so I could be wrong), the wheelbase appears stretched without properly integrating the drivers' comportment into this longer (if correct) wheelbase.

I know that the internet is raving about Kimora's project, but when I have been at it for so long, I notice all these details and cannot help but feel they have turned a beautiful swan into an ugly duckling. There are some exceptional restomods out there that take the originals to the next level, for me that is Singer and couple of Alfa ones (Alfaholics and Totem Automobili), while this project provokes thoughts of chasing the quick buck by jumping on the restomod bandwagon and coming up with over glorified kit car (though I guess many would argue that is what every restomod is :D).

Hi Andy, we have mentioned Kimera's project couple of times further up - they claim their project is aimed at a restomod of the 037, while the task I set myself to do is what a contemporary MkII version would look like, similar to the way the Escort, the Mini and numerous other models have evolved. If I was to do a restomod, I would have stayed significantly closer to the original styling, tweak tiny details and exchange certain components for modern more reliable ones, while Kimera have strayed too much away from the original for my liking. Or it could be the fact that their styling reminds me so much of the state of my project back in 1987 and the not too talented hand sketches in my school books ��.

One interesting thing is that according to their press release, they have involved Abarth people working there in the 80's on the original Lancia branded models, but the names mentioned means they were more involved in the models following the 037, i.e. the S4 and the Delta Gr.A, and their influence is evident in some of the styling details (Integrale wheel arches) and engine solution (mechanical and turbo chargers). Also, although I haven't analysed it yet, but just visually (so I could be wrong), the wheelbase appears stretched without properly integrating the drivers' compartment into this longer (if correct) wheelbase.

I know that the internet is raving about Kimera's project, but when I have been at it for so long, I notice all these details and cannot help but feel they have turned a beautiful swan into an ugly duckling. There are some exceptional restomods out there that take the originals to the next level, for me that is Singer and couple of Alfa ones (Alfaholics and Totem Automobili), while this project provokes thoughts of chasing the quick buck by jumping on the restomod bandwagon and coming up with over glorified kit car (though I guess many would argue that is what every restomod is).

I posted it for the pics.
it don't look that much different really does it

Thanks Andy, I guess "professional deformation" is to blame for my views :)

While the design of the car is progressing in my head, I thought perhaps a post on the family tree of the 037 would provide a useful reference for the project. Nothing really new here, with all the information available on the net, but just summarised in one place.

1960’s end: Fiat considers a new two seater sports car as a replacement for their aging ones, commissions Bertone and Pininfarina to come up with ideas.

1970: Pininfarina builds first prototype of their answer to Fiat’s call, project X1/8 displaying that lovely canopy profile, proposed engine (3L V6) larger than in Bertone’s own X1/9.
https://www.lanciamontecarlo.net/images/x8p0a.jpg

1972: Pininfarina’s project code altered to X1/20, another prototype built, intention is to use smaller (2L I4) than the X1/8 engine
https://www.lanciamontecarlo.net/images/x20p1a.jpg

1974: Abarth builds a competition version of the X1/8/20, codenamed SE030 with longitudinally mounted naturally aspirated 3L V6 engine
https://www.racingsportscars.com/wm/...i=&mode=Car440

1975: Fiat chooses to place a Lancia badge on X1/20 and present it at the Geneva Motor Show as Beta Montecarlo, engine is transversely mounted naturally aspirated 2L I4
https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/auto...?itok=Gf7ze2uA

1979: The Lancia Corse camp of the merged Fiat competition department, with Dallara's help on the engineering side, develops and presents the Group 5 Lancia Beta Montecarlo Turbo, engine is transversely mounted turbo charged 1.425L I4
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3b/fb...bf43831677.jpg

1979: Short tail version of the Group 5 Lancia Beta Montecarlo Turbo
https://www.racingsportscars.com/wm/...&wi=&mode=Null

1980: Abarth project SE036, once again mainly driven by the Lancia Corse group of people, intended for the newly proposed Group B but never built as deemed too complex for the time available, tubular spaceframe rally car with a suggested Ferrari V8 engine

1980: Work starts at Abarth on a simpler alternative to the SE036, codenamed SE037 using the central section from the Beta Montecarlo Group 5 car, but with longitudinally mounted mechanically supercharged 2L I4

1982: Abarth SE037 is presented to the public, Fiat brands it Lancia, named Rally, first proper Group B car
https://www.rally037.com/original/ar...037c_small.jpg

1983: Lancia Rally 037 wins the world rally championship manufacturers title
Image taken at the end of the 1983 Monte Carlo Rally
https://www.rally037.com/original/P030Web.jpg

What strikes me most is that so many different companies have contributed to the development of a project that ultimately led to the Lancia Rally 037 and at the same time the variety of engines fitted on the same base platform, in effect it means that any engine can be fitted to a potential MkII version and claim made to be historically justified :).

Yes please.....................love it.

Attachment 18406

Attachment 18407

Very nice, very limited, very expensive! Not sure about those lights though - looks like it's wearing spectacles...

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Originally Posted by ducatiman

Yes please.....................love it.

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Not to me Andy, reminds me too much of my schoolboy sketches on the subject 30 odd years ago. As I mentioned, perhaps it is a result of being for far too long at it, but i can see features that just make me shudder. Coincidentally, I listened to the brief interview with the guy as the car was unveiled at Goodwood and on the question what inspired him to do this project, he answered it was the Lancia Delta, interesting logic!

My intention is to come up with a car that people can clearly see the 037 blood line but in a contemporary styling.

Cheers,
Nik

As I recall from my day at the FoS , the engine of this car was a 4 cylinder supercharged and turbocharged unit. It would have to work very hard for its keep - I think I would have preferred something a little less stressed! (like a nice V6)

Yep compound charged 4 cyl. Not sure what capacity though. They had the engine on a stand. The red car is purely a cosmetic piece. They also had a grey fully functioning car. Sounded great setting off at the start line. Not sure a V6 would suit.

To my eyes it was the best looking 'new' on the whole place.

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Originally Posted by Stratos Fear

As I recall from my day at the FoS , the engine of this car was a 4 cylinder supercharged and turbocharged unit. It would have to work very hard for its keep - I think I would have preferred something a little less stressed! (like a nice V6)

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I tend to agree Peter, though unlikely I would go down that route in my case. Having said that, Alfa's Giulia 2.9 v6 will perhaps be a good choice.

Taking into account the slow progress of my project, by the time I get to choose an engine, I feel a great modern alternative to the supercharged 4 cylinder engine of the original would be an electrically assisted turbocharged 4 cylinder (not to be mistaken with a dual stage electric and turbo charging). These engines are already making an appearance and I guess 4-5 years down the line will be more widespread in the "hot hatch" part of the market.

Out of interest, are there any forum members that are also Lancia Motor Club members - I am planning on passing by and saying hello on the Friday of the club's annual gathering in 10 days time in Thame while heading for a holiday and perhaps do a quick run with the model in the car park there if I manage to fit it in the car.

Just came back from my driving holiday to Scotland, passing by through Thame on the way there and spending an hour at the Lancia Motor Club gathering on the Friday, arguably not the best day as most of the attendees were still arriving, but no choice.

I did have a chance to chat to the Gent (whose name I did not take) owning the blue/silver Montecarlo, who mentioned it was the very first example on British soil:

https://www.rally037.com/16model/Run..._037_small.jpg

On a related subject, it was my first visit north of the Cairngorns and into Orkney, also did half of the NC500. Stunning backdrops and roads! I noticed they felt compelled to include a proper camber on many a turn. Must get back there once I build the 037.

The Rally Festival in Telford is finally just around the corner, I can see there are few Hawks and Rob Whitehouse's 037 on the starting list. I am aiming to be there on Saturday as other commitments on Sunday. Hopefully it is a good one, I really look forward to it.

EDIT: Noticed some forum members' names on the drivers front.

I shall be there on Sunday, in a static form at Western Park next to the organizers compound.

The actual running of the Motoring part in the park is being run by the Owen Motor Club, (who run two stage events each year at Western) and as I am a member of that club, and it is just up the road from home, we shall be part of a static display (hopefully) put on by them to back up the event.

Robin

Good luck Robin, I hope the event is a success.

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Originally Posted by rally037

The Rally Festival in Telford is finally just around the corner, I can see there are few Hawks and Rob Whitehouse's 037 on the starting list. I am aiming to be there on Saturday as other commitments on Sunday. Hopefully it is a good one, I really look forward to it.

EDIT: Noticed some forum members' names on the drivers front.

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Attachment 18652

Entry list from their website, sorry it's so small, can't adjust that.
I'm on the list but I withdrew earlier in the year so don't go looking for me.

Mark

Cheers Mark, sorry to hear you had to withdraw.

Arrived relatively late in Telford yesterday, so only had a chance to see the ceremonial start of the last few cars, then missed Rob Whitehouse in the service park, but managed a brief chat with John Rutter while he was attending to his car and then had a longer conversation with Mick Covill, I am massively impressed with what he's achieved organising the Rally Festival here in the UK.

https://www.rally037.com/16model/Run...2951_small.jpg

https://www.rally037.com/16model/Run...3110_small.jpg

Long time no post - family, daytime job and home extension building work taking most of my time, but the Rally 037 project kept ticking over in my mind with time to consider project options. The house extension is now complete, with most of the building work done ourselves over the winter of 2021/2022 right when my work commitments were at their greatest - I work as a design engineer for one of the F1 teams and the winter of 2021/2022 was occupied by work on the now current generation of F1 cars which went off the chart in terms of work hours even compared to the traditionally busy winters in any F1 team. However, as the spring of 2022 dawned and there was the occasional hour to think about hobbies (and sneak in buying project stuff under the banner "extension building materials"), I managed to make some progress on the chassis/frame construction techniques. I am not an experienced/competent welder and although I don?t mind learning, I am a lot more confident at some other techniques, like bonding for example. So with that in mind and during the long winter months, I hatched up a plan in my head to experiment with alternatives to welding a tubular steel frame. Bonding opens up quite a bit of alternative options for the tube material, like aluminium, titanium and carbon fibre, while avoids heat distortion issues associated with welding, but it comes with the obvious question mark over strength and durability. So I decided to get four different material grades and experiment while I am not in a position to start the actual chassis frame. I went with a woven carbon fibre, Ti Grade 2, Al 6061 T6 and Stainless 316. The idea was to bond corner samples of each, leave them in the garden exposed to sun, rain, heat and cold for a year and see how much each joint has deteriorated. As can be seen, each of the materials I chose does not rust so it really was a question of pretty much what happened to the joints. The construction technique I went ahead with was 3D printed plastic corner tube fittings that join the tubes and then wrap each joint in a wet carbon fibre laminate. I guess it sounds more complex relative to welding, but when one is more familiar with this rather then welding, I can promise you it is a lot less daunting relative to ensuring welds are structurally sound and thermal distortion is minimised.

So, I modelled some split corner fittings and printed these in PETG - the job of the fittings is to mainly hold the joints together prior to laminating rather than to provide the structural integrity. I also went with split fittings as this would be worst case scenario versus a non split ones where the tubes can simply be inserted in each fitting - while most fittings in such space frame can be non split, inevitably there will be a point when a closing section of tubes will no longer be able to be inserted into a fitting and a split one will be required, which will represent the weakest link in a potential frame. Coincidentally, all that provided an opportunity to involve my kids in a sort of science project - while the elder one has now somewhat outgrown doing projects with dad, the younger one is very much in the midst of it, so I did not want to waste a great opportunity for spending meaningful time together. So in May 2022 we cut the tubes into smaller sections, prepared the ends of each section for bonding (preparation is pretty much the main contributor to structurally sound joint once adhesive has been chosen), bonded the tubes into the fittings, waited couple of days then laminated over the joints and after waiting two more days (no elevated heat cure as that would not be an option for me on the real frame) we placed them on a table in the garden and left for a year. Just to add, on each corner joint, we left one of each three arms unlaminated for one more data point.

Skip forward and it is May 2023, it was time to get the samples and see how they fared - considering the three arms on each joint, there were two sets of 90deg arms that we can test using our "calibrated" arms and body weight - in summary, we managed to break all junctions without a laminate over the plastic fittings but the ones with laminate over were solid enough to withstand the loads we can subject them to using various lever techniques. We called that as much success as we could have hoped for. The next question of course is, from the four material choices which is the right one - if it was to be based on cost, Al 6061 T6 and Stainless 316 win hands down being many times cheaper than carbon and Ti. If it was down to looks, at least to my eyes, the Ti one was by far the most aesthetically pleasing. Another bit to consider was that the Al 6061 T6 and carbon tubes can't be bent (the Al can be if it is annealed but that defeats the point), while Ti and stainless can. Then from the two cheapest options, the Al and the Stainless, on the strength and stiffness versus weight, the Al is the better choice. So overall, the Al 6061 T6 is the winner in my budget range. If spending (considerably) more is an option, then I would consider the Ti. By the way, in a potential Al boded frame, Stainless or Ti will still be required where bent tubes are necessary, as in a roll hoop for example. Bottom line for me is Al 6061 T6 with a bit of Ti Grade 2.

While all this was going on, thinking continued on the overall planning of the project and the more I looked into my resources the clearer it was that doing the full scale car at the quality level I will be happy with, is not an option currently, every time coming to the conclusion that another model stage (before the full scale car) would be required. And looking at what the most advantageous scale is, that came at 80 percent, ie 4/5^th scale. Comparing the budgets required for a full scale car and 80 percent model, the difference is nearly an order of magnitude at like for like on quality. That pretty much swayed my mind - 80 percent single central driving seat model with a bike engine - large enough at 3.3-3.4m length overall but small enough on features to make it doable on my budget. Ironically that made my frame experimentation techniques very academic for the time being as my choice for the 80 percent model frame is firmly set on bonded square aluminium profiles and aluminium sheets, ie not dissimilar in appearance to what a mid/late 1970's F1 car monocoques looked like (bar the rivets), so all bonded. More recent analogue (but not in appearance) are the Lotus chassis construction methods. I would say this is fairly straightforward, inexpensive and structurally very robust. Also no thermal distortion after welding and no rust.

And one more twist - my younger one just started secondary school, but after not being given the public school of our choice, which coincidentally is also the school closest to our home by a large margin (they are very happy to use our tax money by the way), we bit the bullet and went with a private school which means very slow project progress for the next five years, a question of priorities! Nevertheless this provides an opportunity to work on my "garage" facilities and be ready to push on with the project in five years time (if world still exists of course). I may also be able to sneak in a bike engine under some other budget banner in the meantime!


Printing the fittings

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/1.jpg

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/2.jpg

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/3.jpg

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/4.jpg


Tube preparation

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/5.jpg

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/6.jpg


Bonding the tubes in the fittings, very messy due to the split nature of these, one piece ones are infinitely easier to work with and cleaner looking. My daughter's work (the one on the foreground) is much neater than mine (the two other). Luckily easy to clean later.

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/7.jpg


Preparing to laminate the cloth

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/8.jpg


The wetted cloth

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/9.jpg


Laminated

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/10.jpg


Year later and "tested"

https://www.rally037.com/45model/Build/11.jpg

Very interesting development work Nik - its a shame we will have to wait 5 years to see if you get a chance to use it with the 80% car but I understand the reasons - family always comes first !

I suppose the challenge with this methodology is that it would be regarded as experimental and presumably could not be accepted in any competitive motorsport without some sort of technical approval process.

Keep up the good work - and occasional reporting on the forum - when time permits !

Peter

Thanks for the support Peter, it is genuinely appreciated.

You correctly suggest that a lot of what I do/will be doing can be considered experimental (I like experimenting) and unlikely to be eligible for motorsport competition other than exhibition events, but time will tell. Having said that, the bonded Al square profiles and sheets is perhaps not so much of an experiment being used in many other applications, but once again, let's see. One way or another it always comes down to the quality of any work done.

Thanks for reading,
Nik

Nik, a fascinating read and insight into very very modern engineering techniques. I also think that in addition to obviously being a master of most trades (engineer, builder, probably joiner) you are very brave to be doing all that glueing and bonding on the laminate floor.

If I had tried anything like that when assembling my project, I would have been banished to the Shed forever.!!!!!!!!

Robin

Robin ;););), I would have never gotten away with it if it wasn't for the fact it was the floor that was coming off in few weeks at the time to be replaced by a new one.

Massive thank you for the appreciation on the work front!

Nik