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Thread: Future kit builder

  1. #1
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    Future kit builder

    Hello there,

    Quite a few years ago I purchased a home built Hawk HF3000, which for financial reasons I sold a few years later. My plan is to build a Lister Bell STR, which realistically I won't be able to start for 18-24 months or so. I was thinking of buying a 2.5 156 as the donor, because it's a nice revving engine, plus they're cheaper to buy. Eventually I would like to have different cam shafts fitted, and also independent throttle bodies too. However the bloke who works on my Alfa 75 V6 reckons the 2.5 doesn't have much torque, and the 3.0 is much better. Any thoughts please?

    regards

    paul

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    Free user turbonutter's Avatar
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    Re: Future kit builder

    You mention the 2.5V6 as the donor is cheap - which is true, but then you want to add cams & ITB's, which will also need an ECU & possibly pistons, which I would budget at least 4K for? If you want an Alfa engine, then get the 3.2V6, which will give you more power/torque than the tuned 2.5V6 and although the engine is not cheap, you can get them for under 2K.

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    Re: Future kit builder

    Hi Paul, and welcome to the club!

    I've bought a 156 V6 as a donor for a Lister Bell too - I umm-ed and ahh-ed over the 2.5 vs. 3.0 (and 3.2) choice for a bit, and decided that, OK, maybe the 3.0 has more torque, but it's not like there's that much weight to be dragged around in the finished car...and having driven the donor around for a few months to make sure all's good, I can't honestly say it's lacking in performance for what it is! Sure, it's definitely "top-endy", but the noise it makes is fabulous, so that's not much of a hardship to endure!
    My plan was to build the car using the 2.5 pretty much straight from the car, just tarted up a bit, and put it on the road using the donor car's V5 to get an age-related plate. Then, after a year or so, get hold of a 3.0 or 3.2, spend some money on that (cams, ITBs, new ECU, whatever) and swap over the manifolds and single-mass flywheel from the 2.5. I even thought about keeping the 2.5 box and installing a Quaife diff - the lower final drive should make for really good acceleration. Actually, if you're not modding the motor, you can even just swap the 2.5 for a 3.0 and use the 2.5 ECU so long as you use the 2.5 injectors, or that's what some guys on the Alfa forums have done (the lambda and MAF tell the ECU the engine's breathing really deeply, but the software's good enough to cope, apparently).

    Whatever, the thing I'm trying to say is, if you go for a 2.5, you've not hit some kind of dead end. You can concentrate on getting the rest of the car right while running with a perfectly acceptable standard motor that does all the cold-starting stuff etc. that regular production cars do, and if you find down the line that you fancy a bit more go, it's no big deal to upgrade and you've already got the correct flywheel and nice manifolds. But it's a very personal thing - some people jump in with both feet and go for the full modded powerplant right from the off. All down to how much dosh you've got and how much grief you want to give yourself - just remember, it's supposed to be fun!!

    Let us know which way you decide to go!

    Cheers

    Norm

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    Re: Future kit builder

    I’ve decided to put a deposit down on a turnkey LB STR, 3 year waiting list but it gives me time to save. Still not sure about which engine to go for though!

    regards

    Paul

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    Re: Future kit builder

    Congrats on finally making the decision, Paul - but now you'll have to change the thread title

    As it happens, I decided to forget the Alfa base after a change in circumstances last year, and now I'm going Toyota (already got the motor and box). I think the Busso motor's great - smooth, sounds fab, etc. etc., but in the last 12 months I've noticed the donors seem to be getting thin on the ground or expensive (compared to what they were)...plus they're not cheap to tweak! Might be an idea to start donor-hunting now, and stash it away till you need it!

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    Re: Future kit builder

    I suspect that a well built 2.5 with cams, TB's, exhaust.. etc will have more than enough power.... so would you need the torque of a 3.0 to shove a 950kg car round ? (as Normy say's)

    Up to you though... we all have the freedom of choice !

    Phil

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    Re: Future kit builder

    For what you'd spend on an Alfa rebuild, throttle body kit and cams, you'd be easily more money than a Toyota.
    TBH, the busso has had its day unless you just have to have an Italian engine.

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    SEC Member renmure's Avatar
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    Re: Future kit builder

    Quote Originally Posted by strat24v View Post
    ....... unless you just have to have an Italian engine.
    Which is probably about the best reason to want one

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    Re: Future kit builder

    Trouble with the Toyota mota here in Britain is that they're not easy to find either. Think they were only ever fitted to one model (IS350? something like that) and obviously the Lotus Exige and Evora. But, if you can find one, you've got loads of power without having to tweak it and they seem to be pretty much bomb-proof to boot.
    Then once you've got the engine you need to sort a gearbox...that means either the Toyota E153 5-speeder from an MR2 Turbo - strong and available on Ebay but budget for a rebuild, plus flywheel and clutch, and the motor's block has to be mildly modified to get it to fit. Or there's the Lotus box which is basically an EA60 from an Auris/Avensis 2.2 diesel, but that'll need some modding too unless it's from a Lotus, in which case you need an adapter plate, the flywheel/clutch, special starter motor, intershaft bearing carrier..oh, and don't forget the engine loom and ECU :-O Jeez! Maybe the Alfa's the better choice after all! Haha!

    Thing is, you have to decide which powerplant you're going for when you finally give Craig and Lydia your spec as the chassis is different, as are the driveshafts etc. etc. And once you've got that chassis, I don't think you can swap to the other engine (or maybe you can with major restructuring...all things are possible I suppose!)

    The Alfa makes for a fairly straightforward build (it says here), but then the route to more poke is expensive. Go for the Toyota and although it might be a bit more awkward and pricey initially, you probably won't want any more oomph and therefore won't spend any more money (on the motor, anyway). But there's always the Komo-Tec upgrades if you do...they're up to 460bhp now...eeek!

    As Phil says, up to the individual....!

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    SEC Member LPH_UK's Avatar
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    Re: Future kit builder

    I have heard of a brand new Alfa engine sitting somewhere.

    You cal also by 'crate' Yota engines. Swindon Engines used to sell them, they might still do. This place offers them http://www.track-group.com/product-c...-parts/2gr-fe/ and this place http://www.dee-ltd.co.uk/powertrain/2gr-fe.html

    No idea how much though.

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