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Thread: Devils Advocate

  1. #1
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    Devils Advocate

    I am interested so am asking a question, I have built a ListerBell to what I believe is perceived to be a good result, I have absolutely no previous experience of mechanical engineering or any engineering or mechanics for that matter, I am just a petrolhead enthusiast with common sense who has worked in public service. My perception is that the Hawk is so stupidly difficult to build because it has has never had any development that the only people who have ever had any success in building one are people with an Engineering or Mechanic background. This I have to say has been largely borne out to be true by people I have met who have successfully built or are building the Hawk. Whilst the LB is making dreams come true it seems to me that the Hawk kit has broken more dreams than it has made in that there over the years have been numerous unfinished kits come up for sale etc by people who gave realised that it is beyond them, as indeed it would be beyond me. How many unfinished LB kits do you think we will see, 0 so far I think!!!!. So my question is has anyone built a Hawk kit with Zero previous experience of mechanics/engineering etc.Be interesting to know, My opinion is that the cars look similar but are actually chalk and cheese, the LB is not a kit car but is a Component Supercar, If you took a Lotus Evora apart at the side of my car it would look very similar. My car and LB has been recently featured in the "TKC magazine which to me only served to highlight the amateurish nature of this magazine due to poor journalism. The Hawk probably belongs in TKC whereas the LB is a bit more Top Gear.
    As Said "devils advocate", so what do you think !!!!

  2. #2
    SEC Member Guy Mayers's Avatar
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    Re: Devils Advocate

    I'm an accountant by trade, minor car maintenance before I built my car 29 years ago. The first effort is still going strong thank you very much.

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    Re: Devils Advocate

    I have an engineering background and I hope to start building my Hawk soon. I prefer the Hawk because of its closer link to the original Stratos. Above and beyond that, I have been collecting parts for many years now. I am also quite happy to be driving something which, even though it may not be powered by the Dino engine, in my opinion is closer to the driving experience that original Stratos drivers would have encountered. The Lister Bell is in no doubt a well engineered car, but I still prefer the Hawk. In the end when it is all said and done, everybody is different and people will purchase what they like. Some enjoy the challenge of the build and some do not.


    We all share the love for the original car and that is all that's important.


    Henry

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    SEC Member hollytree's Avatar
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    Re: Devils Advocate

    Try finishing a part built Napiersport, and with only Lionel to give advice!

    I nearly did give up a couple of times but thanks to Craig, No Corse Chris, Guy, Neil and too many more to mention who all answered my calls i got there.
    I am a chartered engineer who has done other classic rebuilds in the past and whilst I am pleased with the end result, I would not recommend that build route to anyone.
    Based on all I have experienced, seen and read in the last 6 years since starting, I would go the LB route if I had my time again.
    Last edited by hollytree; 01-08-2017 at 08:36.

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    Site Supporter ProtoTipo's Avatar
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    Re: Devils Advocate

    Mick Worrall built a finished car from a secondhand Hawk kit, and then a finished car from a new LB kit, both in the same time.

    Mick also built a Corse I, but I think that may have taken him a little longer, but not much?

  6. #6
    SEC Member LM mic's Avatar
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    Re: Devils Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor1 View Post
    I prefer the Hawk because of its closer link to the original Stratos.

    Henry
    Henry
    NO and NO and NO and NO ; THousand of times !!!!!!!!!!
    This is an absolute false affirmation and you are writing what you heard on various shows and Stoneleigt weekend from years
    This is an big and old "street legend " and now it's time for true "Mythbusters " to explain why !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The Hawk kit have ;

    1/ a multitubular chassis with a center in fiberglass like all kits ( past own and new ones ) so no conection to the real deal which was totaly in steel and with different interior steel panel and rear tubes !!!

    2/ Front suspension ; beside the kit uses a fiat upright as a base all others components are totally different specially the geometry and all wishbones including the very special steering rack!!! so no connection to the real deal and no way to fit an Hawk item to a genuine chassis and vice and versa !!!

    3/ Rear suspension ; the hawk kit uses a modified road car upright cut and welded with a bespoke strut and wishbone completly different in forms and the geometry is far away to the original one ( the original one having an alumiium cast upright with completly different strut fitted very specially !! so no connection at all with genuine one and no way to fit onto a hawk chassis a genuine upright ; tubes are located totally differently

    4 Body work ; it is said from longtime in this legend that the molds have been taken from and original car ..... of course !!!! but all kits have been molded from this shape and the result is ; no one mold is similar to the other ..... there are at list 2/3/ sort of different wind screens and side window molds and it's quite a pain to know which one replica part is the best to fit to an original steel chassis ( just ask to actual racing teams which one they use ... ) !!!!
    Just compare to GT 40 world ; all manufacturers argue that their body was molded on "original ones " !!! in fact homebuilders do not care ... they prefer to have good quality molding with good aspect shutlines and not to much work to do to assemble this bodywork ..... how long it takes to fit an Hawk body to the chassis ? Just check ANDY's thread ......

    So then ... now please think about all these ( and more details)

    There are actually 2 kits manufacturers ;
    It is far best to compare them only about how they are delivered , how each one is built , how each one is engineered and not telling again this one or this one is more "close" to the genuine one
    Each brand of kit have his interest and the choice is open ; this is avery good opportunity to potential customers
    Each home builder can have his own opinion and probably both kits are pleasant to built and each one can be happy with the result he is able to achieve but again please forget this idea or being " very close or not to the original one "
    Our cars will be for ever REPLICA's .... he only nice compare to do is to watch at how much work have been involved in each different builds and how nice can be this particular built ;
    There are very very nice Hawk builts and there are very very nice LB builts but there are also poor Hawk or Corse builts as there will be for sure poor LB builts ......

    Aplogise if I have been too "rude" but after building so many different replicas and 40 years of car building I am happy only when reading true stories and not legends !!
    Last edited by LM mic; 01-08-2017 at 08:21.

  7. #7
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    Re: Devils Advocate

    Ooh dear, can of worms time again!
    I think the LB is what it is because it was designed that way, more or less from a clean sheet of paper relatively recently, and by someone who has seen the best that the industry has to offer and what sells kits.
    The technology available to Craig when he sourced his components is leagues ahead of what was available when the Transformer was designed and the Corse for that matter too.
    Development is the key in any successful product and we should note Craig has a policy of continual development too!

    No doubt the Hawk has suffered from little development over the years. In my opinion this is down to lack of any effective competition.
    There are some very nice aspects of the Hawk, snd some not so good ones.
    But it's very buildable by anyone with the necessary passion and enthusiasm.
    For very many of us the build process is the most enjoyable part. There are people on here who chrome plate the return springs of their over centre catches!
    No criticism for that, but it illustrates the lengths that people will go to for build satisfaction. Hopefully they are looking forward to a satisfying driving experience too. In the end.
    Their was some talk on the forums at the time LB was launched that it was a "brave move". I don't know if this was said through concern about dodgy economic times or if it was through over confidence in the Hawks position in the market. The truth is that the Stratos replica market was crying out for the LB, it's created its own demand and deserves every success coming it's way.
    It's been said many times here that choices are personal. You Build what you want how you want it and nothing is truer
    I may have been partisan in some of my own comments in the past but I've learnt on here that we all share the same passion and as far as I'm concerned any Stratos replica is a thing of beauty no matter whence it came or who built it!

  8. #8
    Site Supporter ProtoTipo's Avatar
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    Re: Devils Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by LM mic View Post
    There are very very nice Hawk builts and there are very very nice LB builts but there are also poor Hawk or Corse builts as there will be for sure poor LB builts ......
    That is so true Michel.

    As far as unfinished Lister Bell STR kits goes. There has been just one up for sale so far, but give it time.
    'Less to do with the type of kit and its ease of build, but more with people underestimating their amount of free time,... as always.
    Last edited by ProtoTipo; 01-08-2017 at 08:09.

  9. #9
    SEC Member Strat Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Devils Advocate

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Oh dear, Too late........
    Last edited by Strat Fan; 01-08-2017 at 08:34.
    "You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead"
    Stan Laurel

  10. #10
    SEC Member LM mic's Avatar
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    Re: Devils Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by john View Post
    It's been said many times here that choices are personal. You Build what you want how you want it and nothing is truer
    I may have been partisan in some of my own comments in the past but I've learnt on here that we all share the same passion and as far as I'm concerned any Stratos replica is a thing of beauty no matter whence it came or who built it!
    ABSOLUTLY !!! + 1+1 +1

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