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Thread: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

  1. #31

    Re: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

    I think I'm beginning to smell the hand of higher authority than JLR here, and are there not a number of companies in the UK that produce as a commercial business, replica 'C' type, 'D' type and even 'E' type body shells and chassis parts?

    There are other implications as well, for instance, the Stag Owners Club will sell you a complete set of panels and parts to construct a body shell, all made from patterns and dies produced and owned by the club, but sold on a commercial basis.

    I think that the larger manufactures are waking up to the fact that there is a huge additional market out there that they want to have a slice of, that is likely to grow considerably as we are forced to move away from what could be termed the conventional automobile to 'E' vehicles.

    Robin
    Last edited by Longtimefan; 12-02-2021 at 17:56.

  2. #32
    Site Supporter ProtoTipo's Avatar
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    Re: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos Fear View Post
    - so it's not us owners/builders who need to be afraid - it's the likes of Hawk and LB !! The risk to the replica industry remains - if other manufacturers such as Fiat and Ford wish to follow the same route.
    Well, both have already been leaned on by BMW and Lister. (respectively)
    Last edited by ProtoTipo; 12-02-2021 at 16:45.

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    Re: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

    That statement by JLR still doesn't answer all the questions though. JLR management actively helped some of the "replica" companies by supplying factory drawings etc. and even used replicas in some of their promotional material and at events, I've read. But now they turn on these same people, citing "intellectual property"? And it's not just Creare, but also Suffolk Sportscars who they've leaned on. All this "ensuring enthusiasts can enjoy our vehicles long into the future" is cobblers, as it's the enthusiasts they're hitting! What they should really be saying is that they're ensuring that only the moneyed elite can enjoy their vehicles, because no-one else can afford them. Going after replica manufacturers means the regular enthusiasts won't be able to have a "new" car, unless JLR believe all enthusiasts can simply knock up a D-Type in their garage?
    Do they really think Creare or Suffolk were rivals compared to their own continuation cars? Even at 250K they're about 6 or 7 times cheaper than Jaguar's will be....and actually, where does this leave a firm such as Lynx, or Proteus, who produce some of the best replicas and which are renowned and respected within the classic community for such?
    If the court thinks an old car can be compared to a painting or statue, then replicas must be OK, as there are countless copies of the Mona Lisa and that oriental woman with the blue face you always used to see So it must all be about "passing off" as a real car? ...or is that just me applying logic....
    Oh, and what about free market forces? If there's a demand for an old car, and the original maker stopped doing it yonks back, surely all a replica maker is doing is satisfying that demand and giving the public what they want? If the original manufacturer wants a piece of the action, all they have to do is inspect the replica to make sure it's good enough and then take a royalty payment. In that way everyone's even happier - replica company knows they're OK, original firm is happy they're not being brought into disrepute by a substandard product, buyer's chuffed cos the car's got a degree of authenticity. Just so long as it's not actually called a Jaguar C-Type or whatever. But that's probaly too sensible and grown-up when you can throw your toys outta the pram and make a lot of noise about "intellectual property" that you'd actually abandoned 60-odd years ago....
    Last edited by Normb666; 12-02-2021 at 17:33.

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    Re: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

    Just one other thing: I could maybe stomach this sorta thing if JLR had got all out of shape years ago, when "replicas" of their cars first started being produced. But now, nearly 40 years later? No, sorry, too late to the party. If they want to also do replicas/continuations, join the mob and make the best rep. Don't act like you just read that fable of Aesop's about a dog in a manger!

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    Re: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

    Quote Originally Posted by Normb666 View Post
    What they should really be saying is that they're ensuring that only the moneyed elite can enjoy their vehicles, because no-one else can afford them.
    To be fair Norm, companies spend a lot of money building up their brand which in many instances is far more valuable than the individual products they sell. Louis Vuitton make fancy handbags and fancy stuff that posh folk spend ridiculous amounts of money on. Maggie and Bertha who buy a knock-off copy on the beach at Torremolinos for 10 Euros rather than a proper one at 1500 Euros aren't a lost sale to LV but the fact that they, and the rest of the Skegness bowling club can do that dilutes the value of the brand which is why companies like Louis Vuitton are very proactive in protecting their brand officiously. Some other companies are less proactive unless their nose is rubbed in it and some companies aren't bothered. However, all the companies have the same rights.

    The problem with making a replica of anything is, well, the clue is in the name. You are copying someone else's property, whether that is physical or intellectual. If you do that without their permission or agreement or under a license then you may run into problems if they object and, depending on how they object, that may have expensive consequences. As ever the devil is in the detail.

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    Re: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

    Ok Tim. They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Last I saw was a campaign to save Lancia.
    Any connection to the previous ownership or is it all new?
    And should we be worried....!?!?

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    Re: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

    Jim makes a no doubt well informed point about brands and their value.
    The only issue I see about branding is that a brand owner can and will sell it, but in many cases, with absolutely no conscience about who they are selling it to and what kind of quality will be turned out in future. The value they put on branding is how much they can get for the name. So spare us the garbage about ensuring quality.

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    Re: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

    Jim, you lost me with the handbags....only way I can tell them apart is when they say "Morrisons" or "Tesco" on the side But famous makers of fashion items, and car companies, have a valid point when what's being copied is till in production, or was until recently. But what we're looking at here are models that went out of production ages ago. Yes they're iconic - that's why there's a replica market - but as long as these replicas aren't being sold as the Real Deal, but are still of good quality, in what way are the original manufacturers hurt? People seeing the replicas will remember the Good Old Days, and those too young to have seen them first time round, will be inspired to learn. In both situations such an outcome can only be good for the original maker. I believe that's called "win-win"? Litigation, such as we're talking about here, is pointless and vindictive. Of course it's sometimes supported by those who can afford to buy and run the original cars, because there's nothing like feeling superior in a "I've got something you can't have" way.... in fact Jaguar were on the receiving end of this sort of attitude when they did the continuation run of the Lightweight E-Types a few years back, and an owner of an original car was interviewed and effectively said it shouldn't be allowed. In the same programme, even Lord March said they wouldn't be welcome at Goodwood. Make of that what you will - I have.

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    Re: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

    Quote Originally Posted by Longtimefan View Post
    I think I'm beginning to smell the hand of higher authority than JLR here, and are there not a number of companies in the UK that produce as a commercial business, replica 'C' type, 'D' type and even 'E' type body shells and chassis parts?

    There are other implications as well, for instance, the Stag Owners Club will sell you a complete set of panels and parts to construct a body shell, all made from patterns and dies produced and owned by the club, but sold on a commercial basis.

    I think that the larger manufactures are waking up to the fact that there is a huge additional market out there that they want to have a slice of it, that is likely to grow considerably as we are forced to move away from what could be termed the conventional automobile to 'E' vehicles.

    Robin
    Good points Robin.

    Its a little ironic, if this is the case, that just through the passage of time this market has again become lucrative to the mainstream car manufacturers. What about the "wilderness" years when enthusiasts were not supported in terms of replacement parts and panels, when it became uneconomic for the big boys to continue producing them. This is why enthusiast clubs and small car part firms stepped into the vacuum left by a lack of supply of the bits to keep their respective vehicles on the road.
    There is the "elephant in the room" in that generally most manufacturers want inbuilt obsecelence in their products, so they can sell you the next shiny thing to come off their production lines. The only reason that I can see, in this particular case, that JLR are getting their Corporate knickers in a twist is........money. Its got nothing to do with protecting the brand or owners of the genuine article, just filthy lucre. The truth is that a great number of modern component cars are completed to a better standard than the originals and a number of the manufacturers continue to develop their product to ensure a better customer experience - sadly something a lot of the "British" manufacturers forgot about particularly back in the 60's and 70's.
    I hope this sort of litigation does not gather pace, but experience guides me to expect to be disappointed where the profit and envy are involved.
    Cheers!
    Ade

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    Re: Jaguar sues a bloke who build a replica - and wins!

    Companies exist to make profit especially those with shareholders. Ultimately that's what it boils down to. So long as you operate within the law the whole concept of 'morals' and 'doing the right thing' etc is a moot point to be honest. It might be pointless and vindictive but it's their right legally.

    It's shit, but that's the world we live in.

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