Litton Corse build with 2.0l Lancia 8v TC

Hi Paul,
Well as you say nothing too onerous to sort out there.
Guess it's a little disappointing but you already know it should be a breeze when you go back.
We've often said on here that certain issues are open to interpretation by different inspectors but sounds like you have had a decent guy there who alas could not pass due to straightforward stuff and you've accepted it quite correctly that way.
I'm no expert but I think it will be Caster angle on the front you need to change. Adjust the trailing link length. Maybe your bottom ball joint is wrong and you are not getting enough articulation in the joint to get enough Caster?
As I said I'm no expert and preferred to leave initial set up on Frederics Corse to Blink Motorsport, only a mile from my workshop. I have a print out of the settings they achieved so will try and post a picture up for you shortly.
Has worked pretty well on initial road use.

Here you go. Hope you can read it ok.
The settings I asked for were Craig's suggestions.
Blink confirmed that these were very much the same settings they use on an Elise and very similar to the MX5's they prepare.

Thanks John for posting this information. It is great to know what an initial set up should look like. My initial set up was 1 degree negative camber and 4.5 degrees positive castor, spookily close to your configuration.

I have 1 degree of toe-in and I see that you run parallel.

I will double check my measurements, fit the new ball joints and then remeasure and test the outcome.

I am suspicious of the bottom ball joint and await the replacement delivery early next week. Paul

Hello Paul,

As John says it is extra caster you require for the self centering on the steering. If you have already set the bump steer with the caster as it is set now then you could disconnect the swing bolt where it attaches to the TCA and wind it in say 3 full turns, the thread is a 2mm pitch & every 2 full turns will add approx 1 degree of caster so this would increase the caster to approx 6 degrees. This way after the test you can wind the swing bolt back to where you are now safe in the knowledge that you don't need to reset the bumpsteer. Quite often a new ball joint has a reasonable amount of stiction which can hinderthe self centering, once the ball joint loses its "newness" then things will free up, not helpful for IVA but something I have witnessed in the past which could be worth mentioning to the examiner on the retest.
If you have 1 degree of toe in then this could possibly affect the self centering too, 10minutes is a better starting point for the front axle.
With regards to the rear settings, the set up John has posted is very agressive on the rear (the front is fine), the rear toe is marginally more than I would start with & the rear camber is way more than I would look for on a road car.

Good luck with the retest!

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Originally Posted by Strat Fan

With regards to the rear settings, the set up John has posted is very agressive on the rear (the front is fine), the rear toe is marginally more than I would start with & the rear camber is way more than I would look for on a road car.

Good luck with the retest!

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Yes. More than I would want too in an ideal world, but a work in progress. Definitely more than Paul would want on A Stradale style on what size rear tyre?

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Originally Posted by john

Yes. More than I would want too in an ideal world, but a work in progress. Definitely more than Paul would want on A Stradale style on what size rear tyre?

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I think the Corse "S" cars did run quite aggressive rear toe settings so these would probably be fine, it's the camber that is not ideal & I appreciate that this is out of your control currently on Frederics car.
A strut type suspension system offers less camber gain in bump than the equivalent double wishbone set up so it is common to see more static negative camber on strut equipped track based cars to help compensate for the increased roll generated where the cornering loads & grip are greater but this wouldn't be suitable to a road car where the car spends substantially more time heading in a straight line.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Strat Fan

I think the Corse "S" cars did run quite aggressive rear toe settings so these would probably be fine, it's the camber that is not ideal & I appreciate that this is out of your control currently on Frederics car.
A strut type suspension system offers less camber gain in bump than the equivalent double wishbone set up so it is common to see more static negative camber on strut equipped track based cars to help compensate for the increased roll generated where the cornering loads & grip are greater but this wouldn't be suitable to a road car where the car spends substantially more time heading in a straight line.

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The corse settings recommended by Steve greenwood for the S are on my website http://m.turbonutter.net/site/mobile...etwork=fw#1022

The I settings are there as well, but not sure who gave me those.

My S ran a touch more toe and 7 deg front castor....

Some video from the IVA test day: https://www.facebook.com/michael.eus...02876717517852

Car unloaded outside the Norwich test centre:

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During the test, the headlights were found to be pointing down too much, so we adjusted the headlamps themselves, which ran out of adjustment so we just lengthened the arms on the headlamp opening mechanism - hence why they're not quite flush in the closed position shown below. We'll sort this once the car has passed IVA.
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The other Stratos that has previously been through the test centre...
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...which was on the Norwich test centre's Very Cool Wall.
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Originally Posted by MichaelEustace

Hi guys, some more updates...

Doors are now hung. Took the best part of a weekend getting them to line up - very fiddly. We initially used the the original Litton door brackets, but since the pics below were taken, they've been swapped for items from Napier Sport purchased a couple of years ago, which are much stronger. The hinges are Litton items and we used Renault Clio straps, which work very well.

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Do the Clio door straps operate to the full range of movement as per the original Clio application? I.E. Is the 2 stage "checking" mechanism deployed when the door's opened? .

Sorry for such a delayed reply. The door check straps are actually 'Peugeot 206 Door Hinge Stop Check Strap Front 3DR 5DR N/S O/S 9181C8'. These may well be shared with other cars but these are the ones I ordered! On the drivers door I shortened the check strap by cutting and welding an overlap that resulted in the fully open position providing a few millimetres clearance from the front clam shell.

The passenger door doesn't open quite so far. The passenger door only has one stage of opening but the drivers door has two stages.

Michael and I now have the car through the IVA test and the certificate and registration documentation is with the DVLA team.

We learnt a few things along the way:
To improve the speedometer accuracy I mounted my VDO speedometer inductive sensor on the gearbox lined up with a Fiat Ducato reluctor ring that I mounted on the differential flange. 54 teeth per revolution results in a really smooth and accurate speedometer. I also ran a screened cable for the speedometer wiring as the speedo was susceptible to interference resulting in the needle flickering whilst at a standstill.
The VDO tachometer was erratic when driven from my Bosch distributor with inductive pickup and electronic amplification! A simple diode in the tachometer feed results in a smooth rev counter needle.
I at last brought the correct size springs (Coilover Spring Faulkner 10.5 Inches Long - 2.25 Inch Inside Diameter | FRS-105-200) for my front Leda shocks and now I can mount the shocks the right way up.
I fitted new front suspension ball joints, top and bottom, plus repacked the Litton steering rack with EP grease. The front steering is now really nice and self centring is as it should be.
I have re-aligned the front suspension to 10 minutes toe in, 40 minutes negative camber, 4 degrees of castor. The rear suspension has 10 minutes of toe in and 1 degree of negative camber.
I have 205/50VR15's on the front and 225/50VR15's on the rear. I am currently running 16psi in the front and 20psi in the rear but I suspect these are too high. 350kgs front axle and 540kgs rear with full fuel tanks, 90litres.
I fitted rear mudguards to meet the wheel covering requirements.
Guy Croft solved my over fuelling problems by recommending that I fit a fuel pressure regulator. My engine ran fine with just a couple of gallons in the fuel tanks but when I brimmed the tanks for the IVA test I could not meet the emissions test. The Silver Top road specification fuel pump is able to overcome the Weber DCOE 45 needle valves and neat fuel drips from the accelerator pump jets! A Malpassi Filter King from Northampton Motor Sport cured this issue and we sailed through the emissions test.

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Photograph shows the reluctor ring on the differential flange and the speedometer inductive pickup mounted in my bracket.
Whilst I am waiting for the DVLA to process my paperwork and provide me with a registration number I have a few other things to do:

I am currently working on a steady bar for the engine. I have not used the Lancia head mounted solution as this leads to head gasket issues. I have designed a bell housing mounted solution. I will post some photographs soon.

Hi Paul. Well done on the IVA.
Good tip on the reluctor ring. I guess the more pulses there are the more accurate and steady the signal?
Do you have the welded top front shock bracket or bolt on triangular brackets?
What open and closed lengths are the front shocks?
I did use Clio check links. Bit fiddly to fit but do the job well. Can post pic if you like?

Corse S's always had the welded on front damper brackets, the I's were the ones with the bolt on option. (Citation needed).

Well that's exactly what I thought, but as it happens, I put the phone down only half an hour ago after talking to someone with a different set up!
Hence the question....

Post Litton then?

Steve Greenwood era.

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Originally Posted by john

Steve Greenwood era.

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Yes, because I've just noticed that the gearshift on this car is the same as the one I have now (ex Tom R. Allora). I thought it was a one off, but obviously not.
I once had a chat with the first owner of Tom's Allora, and he described it as a 'Litton'.

Paul's car is unquestionably a Litton & quite an early one at that.
The gear linkage you describe is a Litton part for sure, I remember boxes of those laser parts in the Litton workshop back in the late '80's, the yellow demonstrator car was fitted with the same set up.
I remember working on an Allora in the Litton workshop but that was a Yellow car. It had Lada top front wishbones that were interfering with the Compomotive split rim wheels.

The front shock top mount is welded on. Steve Greenwood gave me a couple of 'temporary front springs' with 2.25" ID but unmatched rates (300 and 350lbs) and promised to send me the correct 200lb springs later. These did eventually arrive but I didn't fit them for years and recently I realised they were 2.5" ID.

I will measure the Leda shocks as I don't appear to have the specification in my paperwork. I would have liked them to be 10mm shorter.

With the correct springs fitted the track rod arms almost touch the top link at full droop plus full lock but they do miss by 3mm. I have to be careful with steering rack gaiters as the previous version I used did get caught in the gap when testing in the workshop on axle stands! If this proves to be an issue I will consider limiting the steering lock, move the top mount up or a shorter shock. Anyone had any issues with front shock length?

The gear change was I believe a Steve Greenwood creation. For some reason I designed my own gear change solution in the car but I liked Steve's gearbox solution.

Yes Paul. Many issues with Corse front shock lengths and suspension travel. Everyone seems to have ended up with something different over time.
Always useful to compare notes!

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Originally Posted by Paul Eustace

I will measure the Leda shocks as I don't appear to have the specification in my paperwork. I would have liked them to be 10mm shorter.

With the correct springs fitted the track rod arms almost touch the top link at full droop but they do miss by 3mm. I have to be careful with steering rack gaiters as the previous version I used did get caught in the gap when testing in the workshop on axle stands! If this proves to be an issue I will consider limiting the steering lock, move the top mount up or a shorter shock. Anyone had any issues with front shock length?

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I specced a front coil over with a 16" open length & 100mm of travel on a Corse "S" chassis I built up, the tyre diameter was 605mm this will be slightly larger than your wheel tyre combination, it may be that you simply run with less ground clearance.

My Leda shocks are approximately 410mm open length and appear to have 125mm of travel before the bump stop comes into play.

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Originally Posted by Strat Fan

Corse S's always had the welded on front damper brackets, the I's were the ones with the bolt on option. (Citation needed).

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Not on the "I" chassis number 33 oddball - welded front and rear. ;)

Whilst I am waiting for my registration application to be processed by the DVLA K&R team I have been working through my jobs list.


I have fitted my engine steady bar and the clutch footrest.


I extended the standard Lancia Beta engine bar and brought new bushes from Beta Boyz. The Lancia bracket which is normally mounted on the end of the cylinder head has been welded to a plate I fabricated and bolted to the bell housing. If the steady bar had remained on the cylinder head it is highly likely that the head gasket would fail due to the stress the steady bar applies to the end of the head.


I have also correctly aligned the headlamp shells in the pods and now have the headlamp pods nicely aligned with the front clam bodywork.

The countdown continues to a registration number plate!

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Last week I received my V5C and I am on the road! I am delighted with the way it drives and even in 'Engine Break-In' mode the engine is really crisp and is clearly going to be lots of fun. No oil or coolant leaks, plugs look ok, gear change is a little stiff but will likely improve, the new drivers seat set up with 'Recaro Double Locking Runners' has provided slightly increased headroom and adjustment to enable my sons to drive!

I have at this stage only driven around the local lanes but unfortunately I must now return the car to my workshop for a couple of days whilst I modify the rear clam bodywork. The bodywork does not have sufficient clearance to accommodate the exhaust system as you can see from the photograph below.

When Lance of OJZ Engineering discussed the design of this system we agreed that I would modify the rear bodywork to provide clearance. I was fooling myself by hoping that the bodywork heat shield and Zircotec coating would suffice. There are no short cuts!

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Here are some photographs of the fibreglass modification to the rear clam bodywork to accommodate the exhaust system.
I now have a good 50mm plus of clearance between the exhaust headers and the bodywork. The increase in airflow in the engine bay can only help maintain an acceptable engine bay temperature.
I glassed the recess from inside the boot is case you are wondering how it was stuck in place!
After a good few miles driving I checked the bodywork temperature and 52C was the highest I measured so I am happy with that.


My current problem is a coolant hose collapse! When ticking over and running slowly, less than 3,000rpm, the coolant hoses maintain their form and coolant temperature is ok. When I hit 4,000rpm the temperature gauge starts to climb and as soon as I slow the revs the temperature falls back in a couple of seconds to 80C! I believe the water pump is sucking a hose flat. When I stop and jump out with my infrared temperature gauge all the coolant pipes are at around 50C with the exception of the top rail!

The car will tick-over all day at a maximum of 85C!


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I have finally resolved my over heating problems. I installed a Davies Craig electric water pump (EWP80) in tandem with the MonteCarlo mechanical coolant pump.
I drilled two 5mm holes in the in-head thermostat to enable the EWP80 to run even when the thermostat is closed.
I installed the EWP in the radiator return pipework by the radiator. The pump is orientated such that air cannot be trapped near the pump gland.
I have replaced the cylinder head over temperature switch with the Davies Craig temperature sensor putting the sensor right at the top of the cylinder head.
I fitted the pump controller in the centre console in front of the gear lever.
I am currently using a target coolant temperature of 85C. At 65C the pump runs for 10 seconds at 6 volts and then lies dormant for 10 seconds. At 80C the pump runs at 6 volts and increases linearly to 12 volts at 85C.
The coolant temperature now remains between 75C and 78C. The oil temperature is very similar.
I have also applied Zircotec's ZircoFlex sheet to chassis tubes and the coolant pump inlet pipework to stop the exhaust manifold heating the coolant.
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Hi Paul, good to know you have got on top of these problems.
Pretty normal trials and tribulations for the car builder I'd say.
No matter how much planning and thought you do at the build stage there are still problems which road use shows up.
There is some debate about the need for a thermostat at all if you fit the Davies Craig complete with controller.
The initial slow/intermittent running is to allow quick warm up even without a thermostat.

Hi John,
You make a good point regarding the need for a thermostat.

With the benefit of hindsight I would not use a mechanical coolant pump at all. I would remove the impeller and shaft from the water pump and weld shut the hole. I would install a larger Davies, Craig or similar electric coolant pump in the radiator return hose and use the controller to intelligently move the coolant.

I have taken the easy route and am running the mechanical and electric pumps in tandem. By setting the electric pump's controller target temperature 5C higher than I need I am using the electric pump to assist the mechanical pump when the in head thermostat begins to open at 74C, the thermostat is fully open at 80C. The two 5mm holes I have drilled in the thermostat definitely allow coolant to flow when the thermostat is closed as the top hose was nicely warm long before the thermostat opened.

If I remove the thermostat, without removing the mechanical pump, I fear the mechanical pump will prolong warm-up and will over cool the engine under low to medium load.

It was raining today so I installed a grommet on the gear change shaft to seal the firewall and help reduce the noise! One less task on my 'to do' list.

Ah yes! You are right Paul. With the mechanical pump still operational you would indeed get a longer warm up without the thermostat in place.

Glad you've sorted it out - I found that the mod that made the biggest difference to cooling as ducting between the radiator and the nose of the car, forcing everything that came through the grille through the matrix. The biggest gap is over the top of the radiator..

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Originally Posted by Paul Eustace

It was raining today so I installed a grommet on the gear change shaft to seal the firewall and help reduce the noise! One less task on my 'to do' list.

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Seems you will be ready for the show season !!!
Nice to watch one more achived car !!
Are you planing to do some club meeting ? will be nice to meet you at Stoneileght !!!:)

I am definitely keen to attend some events this year. Stoneleigh may be a little early for me as I am currently driving around locally building confidence. Today I have 150 miles on the clock. I will soon fill the accusump with oil and this evening I changed the gearbox oil.
I will let you know if I am able to make Stoneleigh.

:o:o:):cool:

My late summer project involved upgrading my front brakes. I originally fitted Fiat 500 front brakes and discs as this was a fairly straight forward installation but the single piston caliper was never going to make the car stand on it's nose.
The following pictures show my solution to fitting HiSpec Billet calipers using HiSpec 300mm * 24mm rotors and 35mm offset bells. I am currently using a 5mm wheel spacer but I am not sure these are necessary. I recently removed all the excess thread from the screws joining my 3 piece Compomotive wheels. In doing so I have
gained another 4mm of wheel to caliper clearance.

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I have been asked to post some photographs of my rear uprights. My car is a very early Litton using the Beta front upright at the rear. Steve Greenwood arranged for it to be modified by removing the bottom ball joint and welding a tube in it's place to connect the wishbone.
I have Leda adjustable struts with an elliptical camber adjustment facility. I just about manage to reduce the camber to -1 degree. I really should buy replacement adjustable top mounts for the struts.
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paul Eustace

I have been asked to post some photographs of my rear uprights. My car is a very early Litton using the Beta front upright at the rear. Steve Greenwood arranged for it to be modified by removing the bottom ball joint and welding a tube in it's place to connect the wishbone.
I have Leda adjustable struts with an elliptical camber adjustment facility. I just about manage to reduce the camber to -1 degree. I really should buy replacement adjustable top mounts for the struts.
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Paul, although my car is an early Transformer it seems to have similar rear struts with those (near useless) camber cams and Leda shock absorbers. We should compare when we meet up! How much droop do your struts provide??

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Originally Posted by ProtoTipo

Doesn't the Peter Hubbard Allora beat any Corse for that title. (kit purchaser = current owner)
I'll bet there are still some unfinished Transformer's bought in the 80s and still not sold on? Although I can't think of any?

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I just came across this thread and thought I would give an update.
Well after 30 years I still have my Allora although its not running due to - well everything not working or seized.
I will be commencing a bit of a rebuild later this year to get it moving and then look at doing a few upgrades to brakes, suspension etc.
My big issue is the windscreen has delaminated in the corners and I somehow suspect I wont get another.

I will be watching my old mate Norman Briers who is in the throws of a LB after having an Allora for a while which amazingly used a donor car with the same reg as mine, apart from the last number with 664R and mine was 667R.
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I have now finished the rear brake upgrade on my car. I have replaced the very tired Lancia Beta rear brakes with a HiSpec solution.

After speaking with Alex from HiSpec I decided on HiSpec UltraLite 4 pot calipers and HiSpec 300mm x 24mm ventilated rotors with custom bells.

I really wanted to remove the hand brake cables from my engine bay as the central tunnel was really crowded and a nightmare to access. The HiSpec Electronic hand brake Spot Caliper was a very attractive solution.

I checked and double checked I had the required clearances between the wheel and the calipers and the hand brake caliper to the inner wheel arch liner and chassis. Then I placed the order with HiSpec....

When the calipers and rotors arrived I set the calipers up on the rear hubs and fabricated caliper hanger brackets.

I was very pleased with the outcome as the calipers are bang on the centrelines and the handbrake works just fine. Due to the awful weather I have had very little chance to bed the brakes in but Spring is not too far away.

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The little red button on the extreme right of the centre console operates the hand brake.
Currently awaiting delivery of the flexible hoses to plumb in the hydraulic handbrake.

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My next major project in the installation of a LifeLine Zero 360 3kg Mechanical in car fire extinguisher kit. When I install this I will redesign and vastly simplify the centre console. This version originally supported the mechanical hand brake and this limited the height of the console.

Here is my Lifeline 360 fire extinguisher kit recently arrived from Merlin Motorsport. I hope to find time to install this over the next week or so.

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Lifeline recommend fitting the external fire extinguisher control and and battery cutoff control on the front scuttle. If anyone has any advice on locating the external controls of fitting the kit please let me know.

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