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Hawk/Transformer Hub Questions
Hi everyone. All this talk about 5 bolt hub conversions has got me thinking about which hubs are which but without the build manual, I find I'm just guessing at it. Could somebody help clarify exactly what hubs we're using in both the 4 and 5 stud configurations?
I think that in the 4 bolt configuration, we have the standard Beta front hubs and custom jobs on the rear. If this is the case, is the custom rear hub the same spec as the front?
I think that some Delta parts are used in the 5 bolt conversion but I'm not sure which. Are these just Delta hubs adapted to the beta carriers and are they the same front and rear?
Besides just wanting to know, the main reason I'm asking is that I've been looking for brake rotor hats. These are a bit difficult to find in the US in 4 or 5 x 98 mm. While Jeff D. has drawn up an very nice set of plans for custom ones, custom hats are a bit expensive and it seems to me that if these are Beta or Delta items, somebody somewhere probably makes a hat that fits properly. Tarox makes hubs for both the Beta and the Delta but I'm not sure if either these would work.
Thanks in advance for your input.
John B.
Last edited by JohnB_SPY8808053; August 10th, 2002 at 07:36 PM. |
#2
August 10th, 2002, 10:17 PM |
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chris.richard
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I'm afraid you'll have to translate "brake rotor hats" for us Brits! Brake rotor I understand as brake disc, but "hat"? Got me there mate!
The standard rear HF2000 hub setup is standard Beta front hub/bearing/CV joint/driveshaft, and therefor 4 stud. The 5 stud conversion uses a Delta hub, which uses a common Beta/Delta bearing set (although Betanut questioned if they are identical). If you use the original Beta outer CV joint, you have to machine out some of the inner end splines on the Delta hub, as the Beta CV has a longer plain section and a shorter splined section. If you use an Integrale outer cv, you don't have to do this. But it's not all that simple.... The older Hawk hub carriers use the Beta castelated nut method of retaining the bearings at the inner end, and if you've got one of these, you have to use a CV joint from an 8-valve integrale without ABS (See Matt-no-VAT's recent posts - this is what I've ordered from John Whalley Ltd, I hope it'll fit). If you have one of the newer hub carriers with a circlip retention of the bearings, you can use a later Integrale CV joint (although ? needs to be non ABS). Or you can tack weld the castlated nut in place and then machine a groove for using a circlip ( so says Gerry) so that you can use a newer Integrale CV joint. As supplied, the Delta hubs are for wheel bolts, and need studs inserted yourself.
The front 5-stud hubs are a fabrication by Hawk which directly replaces the Fiat 4-bolt hubs used on the standard setup. They are supplied with studs inserted.
This is the situation as I understand it, and if I've got a bit wrong, somebody please say so before I'm too far down a blind alley! with my setup!
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Chiave con un martello in una tettoia
Last edited by chris.richard; August 10th, 2002 at 10:20 PM. |
#3
August 10th, 2002, 10:42 PM |
JohnB_SPY8808053
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Sorry for any confusion. By rotor hat, I mean the bowl shaped alloy center section that attaches to the hub and to which a seperate brake rotor or disk is then attached. Now I'm curious - what do you call this part in the UK?
I think I understand about the rear hubs now but I have one more question about the front. When you say that the original 4 bolt front hubs are Fiat parts, which model(s) are they from?
Thanks again,
John B. |
#4
August 11th, 2002, 09:10 AM |
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rutthenut
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Quote:
Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
Sorry for any confusion. By rotor hat, I mean the bowl shaped alloy center section that attaches to the hub and to which a seperate brake rotor or disk is then attached. Now I'm curious - what do you call this part in the UK? |
This part is generally described as the disc 'mounting bell', which does have a 'top hat' section, so rotor hat sounds fair enough!
Something on noticed on the CAE Corse race car, some years ago, was that instead of using a custom alloy construction for this part, a standard iron/steel disc had been used as the basis for the disc mounting bell. Most of the outer part of the disc had been machined away, leaving a small section remaining so that the vented disc could be mounted to this area, after drilling suitable bold holes. I assume that this was done on a solid type disc in the first place, which isn't exactly expensive.
This has the advantage of being the correct dimensions to start with, regarding the wheel-bolt pcd and hub area. There may be a disadvantage if the offset isn't what you really want to the position of the vented disc outer, but there would be a choice of mounting that on the inner or outer side of the original disc.
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John Rutter, aka Rut The Nut.
Owner/builder/racer and now only occasional driver of an HF3000.
Regular co-driver for O'Crikey in BMW 325, competing in the RWD Challenge at numerous national btrda events. |
#5
August 11th, 2002, 10:00 AM |
Chris Jarvis
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John B.
The front hubs are FIAT 132 type, and some older Fiat models, but I can't remember which.
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#6
August 11th, 2002, 06:33 PM |
JohnB_SPY8808053
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Thanks for the info and ideas!
So far it sounds like the best rotor solutions are:
1. Machine down standard solid disks to use as a hat/bell for Wilwood rotors.
2. Have custom hats/bells made for use with Wilwood rotors.
3. Buy a set of Tarox rotors.
As for calipers, the choices seem to be:
1. Fabricate a custom mounting bracket for Wilwood calipers.
2. Buy a Tarox kit that comes with the caliper mounting bracket.
The solid hat/bell is cheap to start with but what does it cost to have it machined? I'm guessing it would be less than having a custom had made since there would be a LOT less work involved. Custom hats generally cost around 150-200 USD each. Most new hats/bells are alloy though so a custom one should be lighter. The wilwood disks are very good and only cost about 50 USD each. Tarox makes alloy hats/bells that will work off the shelf but as far as I can tell, they only mount Tarox disks. That may not be a bad thing though - they get great reviews.
The Wilwood 4 pot calipers can be had for 110 USD ea. and if you wanted more up front, the 6 pot are only 330 USD. The Tarox calipers again work off the shelf but they are a LOT more expensive. Then again, they're Italian and regarded as being among the best you can buy.
Any opinions out there?
John B. |
#7
August 12th, 2002, 02:28 AM |
Jeff Davison
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John.....
btdt.......
I fabricated my own caliper mounts front and rear for my Outlaw calipers (same form factor as the Wilwood). I also had Coleman Racing fab me up (to my specs) hats (bells) to fit the rotors that I chose (11.75" dia. 1.25" thick fronts & 11.75" dia. .81" thick rears - all vented). I posted a while back and even left drawings and pics on the "old" Yahoo Group site. Also I designed brackets for the Wilwood mechanical spot calipers for use as parking brakes.
Here's some pics:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/strato...Rear%20struts/
and:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group...c=gr%26.view=t
If you need more pics and or drawings just give a
shout.
Jeff Davison
Last edited by Jeff Davison; August 12th, 2002 at 03:06 AM. |
#8
August 12th, 2002, 05:42 AM |
JohnB_SPY8808053
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Jeff,
Your solution looks great - I just want to make sure I've considered all the options.
John B. |
#9
August 12th, 2002, 12:28 PM |
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Stratos
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John,
Integrale discs are 284mm (Approx 11.25") and are vented and are a direct fit for both front and rear - no need to machine any hats.
If you use those, the only fabrication you will require is caliper mounting brackets.
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David Watson
Lancia Stratos Supersite
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#10
August 12th, 2002, 09:16 PM |
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chris.richard
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brake discs
John Rutter was commenting in a previous thread that the rear brakes do more work than the front.I'm doing the Alfa 164 brake conversion with the 5 stud hub conversion - should I be looking to put the vented discs on the rear and the solid on the front? This would mean redoing the caliper mountings and would need a separate handbrake caliper. Would it be worth it?
Any thoughts out there?
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#11
August 12th, 2002, 10:14 PM |
mogul_x
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Chris,
I was about to say that swapping front brakes with rear sounds like more trouble than it's worth, but you've already identified the worst of it, and it really doesn't look all that bad.
I guess the only thing I can really say is that I've never seen it done that way. Every mid-engined car I've ever had the wheels off of has had the larger brakes up front. Of course, my experience is limited to a few student-built formula cars, Pontiac Fieros and my MR2, so I may just not have come across it yet.
I think it might be done that way to ensure that the rear wheels will never lock up before the fronts. Understeer is a little safer than oversteer I guess.
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Scott McGill
Hawk HF3000 #0111040 |
#12
August 12th, 2002, 10:48 PM |
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Stratos
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The rear brakes do a lot of work, but the front also do a lot.
I think that if I was building a road Stratos I would fit 284mm vented fronts with 4-pot calipers, and 284mm rear with something like a 164 or Integrale single pot caliper (both same caliper) at rear to get a mechanical handbrake.
If I was building a competition car, I'd put as big on the front as possible with as big a caliper as possible, either 4-pot or possibly even 6-pot, and on the rear I'd put 284mm vented with 4-pot and either have a hydraulic handbrake, or fit an extra single pot caliper for a mechanical handbrake.
AND, in both cases, I wouldn't run a servo.
Just my opinion though - others may think otherwise.
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David Watson
Lancia Stratos Supersite
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#13
August 13th, 2002, 09:39 AM |
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rutthenut
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Re: brake discs
Quote:
Originally posted by chris.richard
John Rutter was commenting in a previous thread that the rear brakes do more work than the front.I'm doing the Alfa 164 brake conversion with the 5 stud hub conversion - should I be looking to put the vented discs on the rear and the solid on the front? |
Although the rears do *seem* to do more work, I would definitely not recommend dropping from vented to solid discs at the front.
The reason for vented discs isn't that they will let you stop quicker or brake harder (they don't), but that they cool better and therefore allow you to continue braking at the maximum level.
Solid discs do not cool down enough when under repeated heavy use (i.e. in track/competition use). This leads to the pads getting too hot and brake fade becoming a possibility.
If your rear brakes fade or fail, locking up the fronts would cause you to go essentially straight on. If your front brakes fail, the rears do not even have to lock up to introduce serious instability and very high chance of a spin under braking. Hence the front brakes should always be equal or better than the rears.
The difference in work load between front and rear brakes will be related to the increased static weight at the rear of the car, so can *allow* slightly larger brakes to be fitted to the rear. This doesn't mean that it *needs* larger brakes fitted that way.
A lot of this is theory-based, but there are some definite practical issues to think about - spinning off when braking if the front brakes are, or become, less efficient than the rears is a very real possibility.
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John Rutter, aka Rut The Nut.
Owner/builder/racer and now only occasional driver of an HF3000.
Regular co-driver for O'Crikey in BMW 325, competing in the RWD Challenge at numerous national btrda events. |
#14
August 13th, 2002, 12:33 PM |
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chris.richard
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Thanks for yet another useful input, John. At least that simplifies it - I'll just put the front on the front and the back on the back!
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#15
August 13th, 2002, 08:05 PM |
JohnB_SPY8808053
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Here are three possible braking solutions based on what I have learned so far. I'm just thinking out loud at this point - anybody have an opinion?
John B.
Solution 1
2x Wilwood 6 pot calipers (front) for $331 ea. = $662
2x Wilwood 4 pot calipers (rear) for $109 ea. = $218
4x Wilwood Vented Rotors (disk only) for $56 ea. = $224
4x Custom Rotor Hats/Bells for $155 ea. = $620
Solution 2
4x Wilwood 6 pot calipers (front & rear) for $331 ea. = $1324
4x Wilwood Vented Rotors (disk only) for $56 ea. = $224
4x Custom Rotor Hats/Bells for $155 ea. = $620
Solution 3
4x Tarox 6 pot calipers (front & rear) for $360 ea. = $1440
4x Tarox Vented Rotors (disk & hat/bell) for $335 per axle. = $670
The reason for not considering a Tarox 6/4 pot set up is that Tarox 4 pot calipers are actually more expensive than the 6 pot becuse they are such a low volume item.
All three solutions would also require:
4x Custom Mounting Brackets for around $50 ea. = $200
4x Steel Braided Flex-Lines for around $30 ea. = $120
The total cost of solution 1 is $2044.
The total cost of solution 2 is $2168.
The total cost of solution 3 is $2430.
Please note that this doesn't include any kind of tax/VAT or shipping costs. |
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