no it's better to mount first brakes and than make the wheel so you can stay into theOriginally Posted by strat24v
track width!
if you make first the rims and than you need a spacer to have some clearance to the brake than you are out of the track width!
than you have the problem with the track width, scrub radius and a whole host of other things.
Enzo
what youre saying is make cast wheels at umpteen thousands of cost to fit round a one off brake setup that cost maybe three hundred quid and nobody else may use?? You normally find the wheels are made already to suit the track and geometry of the vehicle, youd make the upgraded brakes to suit. Guess its just easier to make some flat plates to mount the calipers then stick a 25mm spacer between that and the disc bell.(but not for me)
Here we go, correct way.
If we are starting with say a group 4 stratos replica rear with the consortiums wheels (see what i did there!)You have your chassis, suspension, geometry, wheels, hubs already supplied. Rather than make flat plates for the calipers and stick big spacers behind the wheel to get your caliper clearance, what you do is choose your disc diameter and calipers effective diameter so you know the wheel will go over it, that caliper will then be inset so it doesn't foul the rim anywhere, you then take dimensions to mount the caliper in position , after that, you choose a disc or have bells made to put the disc in the correct position to fit with the caliper. If not you end up with the Carlos Fandango look which looks like they dont know what they are doing. Not too hard to download some free CAD software, draw it all out, then select the brake calipers and discs, bells. Think thats the White/Halstead way of doing it, rather than buying something that doesnt fit, then making it fit (sort of)
Last edited by strat24v; 16-11-2012 at 16:30.
correct way for an Hawk that's right!
but with this way you can not mounted Hawk coffin spoke wheels on an Corse or Allora
i build first the brakes and than TMB make the rims with my measurements so i stay in to the track wide!
BTW i have ordered the PAG 15 in 8x15 ET 0 front and 9x15 ET-12 rear for the Marcolino Stratos Prototipo.
So by doing that, does your king pin inclination point meet the tire centre at the ground?
"The steering axis inclination determines, together with the caster, the resetting forces and the camber of the steered wheels,
also, together with the wheel-rim offset, influences the steering offset."
"The caster generally describes the distance that the tyre travels after it's track point."
i know what you mean but my Allora is a Replica and i have no works settings.
so i have do my best to stay into the axis inclination determines, together with the caster and wheel-rim offset,
and i am a little out of king pin so i have reset forces of the steered wheels only by full impact of the steerring wheel
but the straight run and the brakes from Delta Integrale are perfect!
and that is what i need.
I hope the translation it's correct!
Enzo
That's an "ideal" situation tho', is it not?
Did original cars have zero scrub radius?
Subjective topic of course but I am led to believe that some scrub radius is better than none. I believe Lee Noble tried zero king pin offset on the Ascari & it did not work, very light steering yes but no feel/feedback.
The amount of offset used is dictated by many things but I would say that with the design of the original Stratos coffin spoke wheels (Front ET of 7mm I think) then there would always be some if not a lot of king pin offset present. I would hazard a guess that this is why the original cars uprights were modified to give 9 degrees (?) of king pin angle to help keep the offset to a minimum.
I have no knowledge of the Allora front suspension other than early cars ran Lada top wishbones but on the Corse the solution for the deepest dish wheel is simply to mount the brake disc as close as possible to the bottom ball joint (Whilst allowing for lock & travel), fit the slimmest brake caliper possible (If using a 4 pot dsisgn) & then have the wheel positioned so that is has the minimum necessary clearance from the caliper to the back of the spoke. Front Corse Rims are supposed to be ET38mm so the 15" Coffin spokes simply don't fit full stop.
On the contrary to all of this the Ultima has the worst scrub radius of any car I have ever worked on but doesn't seem to suffer any detremental effect.
Last edited by Strat Fan; 16-11-2012 at 23:40.
"You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead"
Stan Laurel
You need some scrub radius present as mentioned above. This would have been different on the works cars than Hawk as they have a modified front upright giving more KPI giving better turn in on tight corners. As many have said above the best way to go about wheels and brakes is that its the wheel that drives what size brake you can fit. By that I mean you decide and rim dia and width and offsets based on your suspension geom, c of G, etc. not all 15" rims are the same so spoke clearance on the inside can catch you out with different wheels. Your brakes should also be sized front to rear for the C of G , master cyl sizes, car mass etc, and not just the largest you can fit inside the wheel. Not sure if we can get it organised, but a 2D template of the inside of the PAG15 and coffin spokes would be helpful to all. Could be avail to all and used for brake packaging and wheel choice. Also a worthy note the closer the caliper to the wheel rim the more likely you can get a stone stuck between the caliper and rim. On GT.race cars they often run stone scrapers, small kevlar blades attached to the caliper.
Thats great Jonathan, should help alot. Are the circuit/race versions just lightened road wheels as they dont need the long term fatigue factors and durabilty?
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