Which one's wrong???? all look the same to me....Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte76
at least the car has the same wrong one's on all round....lol
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Which one's wrong???? all look the same to me....Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte76
at least the car has the same wrong one's on all round....lol
None of those you've posted are the same style as the Group 4 Wheels, they've got a double web per spoke instead of the single web as those offered.
They're close but not the same wheel.
Vince.
See Jonathan,
Told You I would be wrong....lol....
I will delete them if you like or leave as an example what not to post....opps!!
But arn't they on a GP4 car's so are just as genuine? the first photo is the 75 RAC car so is a works car.
You never know Jonathan might be able to do those as well..!
The Devils in the detail.
If you chaps over at Group 4 Wheels ever need a new project, I'd love a set of these Campagnolo's to have some fun with:
http://vincesgallery.smugmug.com/Oth...%20Copy-XL.jpg
I don't know but if you decide to do this one let me know,Quote:
Originally Posted by Group 4 Wheels
Attachment 3358
All the best
Ian
Hi Jonathan,
Glad you've joined in on this thread and thanks for your time on the phone this afternoon, I have sent you a Private Message.
Brent.
Here's a better shot of the wheel Ian:
http://vincesgallery.smugmug.com/Oth...-%20Copy-L.jpg
The rear wheel on both cars is a completley different style:
http://vincesgallery.smugmug.com/Oth...ENYA1975-L.jpg
Just love the B&W pictured car, I always preferred the flat periscope air duct over the upright one Gerry did! Like Vince I'd love to build one of these and it would have to have the new wheels!Quote:
Originally Posted by Group 4 Wheels
Keep the pics coming!
Guy
Thanks Vince,Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte76
Much better pic than mine.
Yes, a different wheel but just as valid as a genuine used style, just need to find a manufactuer now....
Now if Group 4 Wheels or someone else made your set and mine what a choice builders would have.... We can dream....lol
Those wheels on the front are the Cromodoras from the Fiat Dino aren't they? And the rears are Campagnolo Ragno's I think. That's in the picture above.
First time ive seen a pic that shows those rear arches like that. If it had a running board you could then see the logical design procession to the turbo circuit racer.
I thought I'd seen most variations but that's a completely new one to me, especially with that rear wheel arch treatment, good find.
Vince.
Hi Guy,s and Jonathan,
i bring this discussion only on the way to help Marcolino to decide that the PAG 15 wheels are also very nice on a Stratos.
And now Marcolino have decided to take 8"x15 in front and 9"x15 on the rear axle.
@ Jonathan i take the mesurements on Monday in my workshop and send you e-mail
and by the way we talk about the rims for the Fiat 131 Abarth.
grazie e saluti Enzo
On the RAC 75 and Safari cars that Vince posted up earlier in the thread, the front wheel is Cromodora 14" (as per ferrari Dino), and the rear is an aftermarket Campy 14" Rim, (also for Dino). Of course, brake sizing is compromised using these wheels, which is why they're not seen so often on the '76 cars (though Waldegard still used them for Safari in 1976)
David
I'm just trying to compare my Compomotive Split rims with the PAG's and the Hawk Coffin Spokes and would like to know the offset / ET measurement for the coffin spokes 12" and 8", anyone know?
Hi,
the ET measurement for the coffin spokes are:
ET -34 (12" rim)
ET 10 (8"rim)
Enzo
Thanks Enzo, I'll see how they compare.
Could it be that the ET on the 8" coffinspoke could be different from manufacturer to manufacturer?
I discussed with Gerry H, Jonathan at G4W and Barry at Compomotive to get my PAG 15 in 8" to be the same as Gerry H Coffinspoke wheels.
And the number that came up on the 8" is ET 00 so my PAG 15 is ET 00
However I need a small spacer in front on the PAG wheels to clear the calipper so a bot more posetive offset would have been great, but they are perfect for the rear with the TB15´s in 270 width, filling it out.
John Whalley have not tried on the coffinspokes yet, so should find out soon if I need a spacer on the front to clear the calipper on them as well.
Have a good weekend!
Regards
René
Hi René,
i did also measure ET 0 but Gerry say it's ET 10
i think it's always better to mount the brakes and take the measurements!
and to order like them.
i do that with my TMB rim's! on my Allora.
and Jonathan make it also like your measurements if they are in to the available dimensions.
PAG 15 wheel Spec
Diameter 15"
Width 8"
Offset -24 to +12
PCD Various
i mean that's the best solution, Enzo
its correct to mount the wheels then fit the brakes to suit after, otherwise you alter the track, scrub radius and a whole host of other things. Geometry first, brake package after.
no it's better to mount first brakes and than make the wheel so you can stay into theQuote:
Originally Posted by strat24v
track width!
if you make first the rims and than you need a spacer to have some clearance to the brake than you are out of the track width!
than you have the problem with the track width, scrub radius and a whole host of other things.
Enzo
what youre saying is make cast wheels at umpteen thousands of cost to fit round a one off brake setup that cost maybe three hundred quid and nobody else may use?? You normally find the wheels are made already to suit the track and geometry of the vehicle, youd make the upgraded brakes to suit. Guess its just easier to make some flat plates to mount the calipers then stick a 25mm spacer between that and the disc bell.(but not for me)
Here we go, correct way.
If we are starting with say a group 4 stratos replica rear with the consortiums wheels (see what i did there!)You have your chassis, suspension, geometry, wheels, hubs already supplied. Rather than make flat plates for the calipers and stick big spacers behind the wheel to get your caliper clearance, what you do is choose your disc diameter and calipers effective diameter so you know the wheel will go over it, that caliper will then be inset so it doesn't foul the rim anywhere, you then take dimensions to mount the caliper in position , after that, you choose a disc or have bells made to put the disc in the correct position to fit with the caliper. If not you end up with the Carlos Fandango look which looks like they dont know what they are doing. Not too hard to download some free CAD software, draw it all out, then select the brake calipers and discs, bells. Think thats the White/Halstead way of doing it, rather than buying something that doesnt fit, then making it fit (sort of)
correct way for an Hawk that's right!
but with this way you can not mounted Hawk coffin spoke wheels on an Corse or Allora
i build first the brakes and than TMB make the rims with my measurements so i stay in to the track wide!
BTW i have ordered the PAG 15 in 8x15 ET 0 front and 9x15 ET-12 rear for the Marcolino Stratos Prototipo.
So by doing that, does your king pin inclination point meet the tire centre at the ground?
"The steering axis inclination determines, together with the caster, the resetting forces and the camber of the steered wheels,
also, together with the wheel-rim offset, influences the steering offset."
"The caster generally describes the distance that the tyre travels after it's track point."
i know what you mean but my Allora is a Replica and i have no works settings.
so i have do my best to stay into the axis inclination determines, together with the caster and wheel-rim offset,
and i am a little out of king pin so i have reset forces of the steered wheels only by full impact of the steerring wheel
but the straight run and the brakes from Delta Integrale are perfect!
and that is what i need.
I hope the translation it's correct!
Enzo
That's an "ideal" situation tho', is it not?Quote:
Originally Posted by strat24v
Did original cars have zero scrub radius?
Subjective topic of course but I am led to believe that some scrub radius is better than none. I believe Lee Noble tried zero king pin offset on the Ascari & it did not work, very light steering yes but no feel/feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by john
The amount of offset used is dictated by many things but I would say that with the design of the original Stratos coffin spoke wheels (Front ET of 7mm I think) then there would always be some if not a lot of king pin offset present. I would hazard a guess that this is why the original cars uprights were modified to give 9 degrees (?) of king pin angle to help keep the offset to a minimum.
I have no knowledge of the Allora front suspension other than early cars ran Lada top wishbones but on the Corse the solution for the deepest dish wheel is simply to mount the brake disc as close as possible to the bottom ball joint (Whilst allowing for lock & travel), fit the slimmest brake caliper possible (If using a 4 pot dsisgn) & then have the wheel positioned so that is has the minimum necessary clearance from the caliper to the back of the spoke. Front Corse Rims are supposed to be ET38mm so the 15" Coffin spokes simply don't fit full stop.
On the contrary to all of this the Ultima has the worst scrub radius of any car I have ever worked on but doesn't seem to suffer any detremental effect.
You need some scrub radius present as mentioned above. This would have been different on the works cars than Hawk as they have a modified front upright giving more KPI giving better turn in on tight corners. As many have said above the best way to go about wheels and brakes is that its the wheel that drives what size brake you can fit. By that I mean you decide and rim dia and width and offsets based on your suspension geom, c of G, etc. not all 15" rims are the same so spoke clearance on the inside can catch you out with different wheels. Your brakes should also be sized front to rear for the C of G , master cyl sizes, car mass etc, and not just the largest you can fit inside the wheel. Not sure if we can get it organised, but a 2D template of the inside of the PAG15 and coffin spokes would be helpful to all. Could be avail to all and used for brake packaging and wheel choice. Also a worthy note the closer the caliper to the wheel rim the more likely you can get a stone stuck between the caliper and rim. On GT.race cars they often run stone scrapers, small kevlar blades attached to the caliper.
Thats great Jonathan, should help alot. Are the circuit/race versions just lightened road wheels as they dont need the long term fatigue factors and durabilty?
Ok I've been busy with tape measure trying to work out the off set's to order for the PAG's.
My current setup is:-
Image split rims
Front 8x15 ET -14mm
Rear 12x15 ET -26mm with 9mm spacers so -35mm
There seems to be some confusion regarding the Hawk Coffin Spokes ET measurements, but what I would say is that if a possitive ET was used on the front the wheel rim would run very close the top ball joint, with an ET 0 the clearance on my car using 4 stud hubs and Thema Turbo disks would only be 2-3mm to the ball joint cover and approx 6mm to the joint.
I don't know if the 5 stud conversion has a different hub face position to my set up, could someone with the coffins on measure the distance between the wheel rim and the top ball joint on a Hawk to confirm my findings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat 131 Abarth#2
5 stud coffins are ET0 and ET-50 as stamped on the wheels. Not sure how accurate these figures acually are as I measured the rear rim and worked it to out be ET45. Will double check.
I agree with Graham, Hawk wheels are- Front ET 0, Rear ET -45.
Roin Technologies wheels are- Front ET 7, Rear ET -36.5,
TMB Racing are quoted as- Front ET 21(?), Rear ET -32.
Not sure what is going on with the TMB fronts. All are listed as 8 x 15" Front, 12 x 15" rear.
Roin also do a 9 x 15" ET -14.7 & a 10 x 15" ET -25.
With the rear ET -45 for the coffin's this would explain why I can't fit my Leada struts. with 345's and the ET -35 the tyre rubs the strut body.:(
I have several sets of Revolution wheels of different ages - all 8" with ET0. On the front some need 10mm, some 5mm and some no spacer to clear the caliper!
Thanks to Chris Deering for letting me take some measurements off his Hawk front 5 stud hubs and his coffin spokes, the hub dims match with my car but interestingly the ET marked on the inside of one of the spokes says ET -1.5, it's a bit difficult to confirm this with the tyre fitted but from the measurements taken they did seem to have an ET -1.5.
This seems to match with my findings so I think I'll use an ET -1.5 for the 8" PAG's.
Just need to sort out the ET for 10" Rears now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BAS
Hi Craig,Quote:
Originally Posted by Strat Fan
my current setup about the TMB Racing is Front ET 19 and Rear ET-34 the ET make on order!
with Michelin TB15 Front 18/60/15 (215/55/15) and Rear 26/21/15 (295/40/15)
Enzo
BTW, to be on order by "group4wheels" for Marcolino Prtotipo Stratos PAG 8 & 9 x15 front ET 0 and rear ET-12
Calling all round arch grp4 car's, if you fitted 10" rears what ET did you use?
the rims for Marcolino Stratos are arrived now and
i am speechless that looks fantastic, thanks to Jonathan
http://www.group4wheels.com/index.php
i post picture soon.
Enzo :)
Can't wait to see mine!!